In this case it was definately damned if you do and damned if you don't. As you said the zoo was consistantly under fire about keeping Burma alone, now their under fire for trying to integrate her with another elephant.
Taronga Western Plains Zoo elephant death
- Thread starter jay
- Start date
In this case it was definately damned if you do and damned if you don't. As you said the zoo was consistantly under fire about keeping Burma alone, now their under fire for trying to integrate her with another elephant.
thats exactly right. the zoos are commited to the welfare of their animals. at first, this might seem a dubious statement to make-'if taronga really cared for Burma and Heman why did they just get rid of them out to Dubbo?'-I think as more evidence emerges concerning...
a-the actual ownership issue of Burma
b-the aggressive nature of Burma towards other animals
c-her age
d-her aggression towards keepers therefore meaning she cannot be kept in unprotected contact
that te zoos actually did the right thing, and as i said before, the attempt to integrate Heman and Burma was a step towards trying to give these guys a bit more of a social life. Elephants are such long-lived species, possibly only them, and giant tortoieses and a few exotic birds are left to remind us of our things were done in the past. With the passing of Burma we will hopefully usher in a new era of elephant management in this country based around recognising the real needs of these animals, thier intelligence, the fact they need small herds and not to be kept in pairs, and shouldnt be kept on concrete etc. Perhaps the reason why zoos have for so long been considered unsuitable for elephants is because for so long they simply have been. I think the new changes are for the best.
In a recent interview with the CEO of Taronga Guy Cooper, the ABC's 730 report made the claim that the elephants shouldnt be here because so far no zoo had ever been succesful in breeding them.
Guy Cooper responded quite simply by saying 'because no zoo has ever tried'. And its true. Most zoos have had bull/cow pairs in this country for decades, but accross the country enclosures were woefully inadequate and the social structure completely screwed up. The new enclosures and emphasis on social herds should change this.
I believe that the focus on animal welfare, in the case of the elephant as in all species will help zoos realise their conservation goals with this species way beyond the zoo gates.
a-the actual ownership issue of Burma
b-the aggressive nature of Burma towards other animals
c-her age
d-her aggression towards keepers therefore meaning she cannot be kept in unprotected contact
that te zoos actually did the right thing, and as i said before, the attempt to integrate Heman and Burma was a step towards trying to give these guys a bit more of a social life. Elephants are such long-lived species, possibly only them, and giant tortoieses and a few exotic birds are left to remind us of our things were done in the past. With the passing of Burma we will hopefully usher in a new era of elephant management in this country based around recognising the real needs of these animals, thier intelligence, the fact they need small herds and not to be kept in pairs, and shouldnt be kept on concrete etc. Perhaps the reason why zoos have for so long been considered unsuitable for elephants is because for so long they simply have been. I think the new changes are for the best.
In a recent interview with the CEO of Taronga Guy Cooper, the ABC's 730 report made the claim that the elephants shouldnt be here because so far no zoo had ever been succesful in breeding them.
Guy Cooper responded quite simply by saying 'because no zoo has ever tried'. And its true. Most zoos have had bull/cow pairs in this country for decades, but accross the country enclosures were woefully inadequate and the social structure completely screwed up. The new enclosures and emphasis on social herds should change this.
I believe that the focus on animal welfare, in the case of the elephant as in all species will help zoos realise their conservation goals with this species way beyond the zoo gates.
yes she was, with ranee who died following an operation in 1998 to remove a growth on her vagina.
im unaware of the relationship between these two, but there are references that the cows had to be seperated from Heman because Burma reacted aggressively towards him. just as with humans, elephants have different personalities, and whilst she came from the circus because of her behaviour towards her handler you dont know how she interacted with other animals then.
this might make the decision last year to try and integrate heman and burma seem like it was asking for trouble, but you have to consider that the facilities at WPZ were purpose built for managing both animals seperately and/or together. and that if an introduction was to be succesful WPZ had the facilities to mediate this outcome.
im unaware of the relationship between these two, but there are references that the cows had to be seperated from Heman because Burma reacted aggressively towards him. just as with humans, elephants have different personalities, and whilst she came from the circus because of her behaviour towards her handler you dont know how she interacted with other animals then.
this might make the decision last year to try and integrate heman and burma seem like it was asking for trouble, but you have to consider that the facilities at WPZ were purpose built for managing both animals seperately and/or together. and that if an introduction was to be succesful WPZ had the facilities to mediate this outcome.
firstly, i don't belive for a second that our zoos have never tried. they may have been unsuccessful, but you certainly can't say they never tried at all. are you honestly saying dubbo zoo never tried to breed its african elephants?
oh they have tried. they just have never been any good at it.
secondly, even if the zoos have never tried, presuming guy cooper is correct - well i ask this back. why not? its 2007. elephants have been endangered for decades. how long has it been since people first started to comment on the pissy little concrete exhibit we kept them in. for one your a good 10 years behind adelaide. they moved their elephant to the open range ten years ago!!
you have to remeber glyn. up until literally a couple of years ago our zoos had done sweet %&*@# all for their elephants. but suddenly they expected whole-hearted support from the public when they decided to import more. that supprises me, becuse they forgot to address the number one issue the public had with them keeping elephants - they didn't have enough space.
our zoos aren't pioneering elephant husbandry and care. they are playing catch up with public opinion (and pretty badly if you ask me!).
i think you could say they have tried in the sense that weve had pairings of these animals for decades. but no zoo, with the very recent example of perth has really tried, i mean, a dedicated effort to get the social structure etc established, provide a decent standard of enclosure etc.
guy cooper wasnt referring to the african elephants when he made this remark, though if taken to include some people's arguments you would think that they key to breeding elephants was a male, a female, and space and add water.
on paper dubbo should have been successful, dont know why it didnt. the fact that they werent and a whole range of other reasons makes me a little tired of the idea that the breeding program should have been based in dubbo.
guy cooper wasnt referring to the african elephants when he made this remark, though if taken to include some people's arguments you would think that they key to breeding elephants was a male, a female, and space and add water.
on paper dubbo should have been successful, dont know why it didnt. the fact that they werent and a whole range of other reasons makes me a little tired of the idea that the breeding program should have been based in dubbo.Experiences from Europe show that a pair of elephants is enough to archieve breeding. Elephants are not like gorillas who hardly ever breed when kept in pairs, in contrary they usually do breed well in such a situation. A group of bonded females with a good social structure is super important for the emotional wellbeing of female elephants and for the sucess of raising calves, but not for archieving a pregnancy.
Actually, Taronga had not just a pair but 3 (with Heman, Burma and the third female who died a couple of years ago), same for Dubbo and Perth. So there is Dubbo, Perth, Melbourne and Taronga who tried breeding elephants without any sucess. Maybe they should have exchanged the bulls between Melbourne, Perth or Taronga.
Actually, Taronga had not just a pair but 3 (with Heman, Burma and the third female who died a couple of years ago), same for Dubbo and Perth. So there is Dubbo, Perth, Melbourne and Taronga who tried breeding elephants without any sucess. Maybe they should have exchanged the bulls between Melbourne, Perth or Taronga.
*sigh* nothing turns me more negative than talking of elephants. all this elephant stuff is turning me back into the zoo-jaded patrick.
you would have thought i'de be over it by now.
i really have no idea why the african elephants never bred either. they at least appeared to have the right sort of secenario. in fact until recent discussion i had no idea there was ever more than 1.3 animals imported to the country.
by the way, when i said "zoos are playing catch up" i don't mean with modern standards - i mean with public opinion. people have thought very litlle of our zoos treatment of their elephants for a very, very long time. but i think they came up with band-aid approach rather than actually coming up with a more visonary idea (which would have been to have the guts to move them from city zoos permanatly). the issue is by no means restricted to here either - the "elephant issue" is appearing in zoos worldwide. and its not so much just about elephants as it is symbolic of peoples attitudes about zoos in general. no other animal exemplifies up peoples negative perceptions with zoos that a bored, swaying giant in a tiny enclosure.
anyhow, back to the whole topic of the thread - i'll be interested to hear if dubbo starts making mor esolid descisions about its future regarding elephants now that it has so few left and and aging group at that. i was supprised when zoopro said they had not yet made a descision. i had been told they were definately shifting to asians and playing a role in the breeding program.
i actually doubt they will consider importing anytime soon.
you would have thought i'de be over it by now.
i really have no idea why the african elephants never bred either. they at least appeared to have the right sort of secenario. in fact until recent discussion i had no idea there was ever more than 1.3 animals imported to the country.
by the way, when i said "zoos are playing catch up" i don't mean with modern standards - i mean with public opinion. people have thought very litlle of our zoos treatment of their elephants for a very, very long time. but i think they came up with band-aid approach rather than actually coming up with a more visonary idea (which would have been to have the guts to move them from city zoos permanatly). the issue is by no means restricted to here either - the "elephant issue" is appearing in zoos worldwide. and its not so much just about elephants as it is symbolic of peoples attitudes about zoos in general. no other animal exemplifies up peoples negative perceptions with zoos that a bored, swaying giant in a tiny enclosure.
anyhow, back to the whole topic of the thread - i'll be interested to hear if dubbo starts making mor esolid descisions about its future regarding elephants now that it has so few left and and aging group at that. i was supprised when zoopro said they had not yet made a descision. i had been told they were definately shifting to asians and playing a role in the breeding program.
i actually doubt they will consider importing anytime soon.
I see that, since they are not allowed to import Asiatic elephants any more, Ringling Bros. Circus in the U.S. have started to breed their own replacement animals.
They claim on their website that since they set up a breeding farm in the early 90's that they have produced 20 calves.
If it's true, thats quite an achievement, but for what?
To stand on their back legs and wear hula skirts?
Pointless!
They claim on their website that since they set up a breeding farm in the early 90's that they have produced 20 calves.
If it's true, thats quite an achievement, but for what?
To stand on their back legs and wear hula skirts?
Pointless!
I think the problem here is that Australian zoos didn't have a big enough 'pool' of elephants in the past for the chances of breeding to be high. Yassa is right, single elephant pairs will breed if male and female are fit,compatable etc. so its not because of the limited numbers. An exchange of partners with another zoo sometimes stimulates breeding- in the Australian case perhaps moving females between Taronga and Melbourne might have been easier than moving the bulls around- but in recent years these females(Burma, Me Kapah etc)would have probably been past breeding age anyway.
For every elephant calf born in European or American zoos, there are still plenty of other adults which have never bred, or never will breed, for a wide variety of reasons. So the Australian situation, with just those very few elephants in the four collections, could be seen as a mirror of the bigger international picture and shouldn't be regarded too much as a drastic failure peculiar to the Australian zoos alone. There are better chances now with the newly imported animals (and for Bong Su too).
for at least the last 15 years taronga didnt have a viable breeding scenario, with only the bull being fertile. ranee died in 1998, rather old and without ever conceiving.
melbourne, maybe as late as 1998/99 might have been able to breed. but with completely inadequate facilities, a pair of animals and no chance to even accomodate another animal. at that stage the only potential would have been in importing burma from Auckland to melbourne to be paired with an Australian bull, for which Melbourne or taronga wouldnt have had the space to house.
pre-import, this would have just left one viable female in the Australia in Perth. Perth also has a fertile, young bull. splitting up a potential pair, and nice little herd to send their female to melbourne, with no space would have been impractical and pointless.
its a tricky situation aussie zoos faced, but the asian elephant management strategy was formulated nearly tens years ago, at a time when the number of fertile animals in the country was as low as 3.1 and at a time when neither melbourne or taronga had space to approtriately house more animals.
even i wouldnt have advocated bringing Burma from NZ to say, Taronga prior to the new exhibit being built for a possible pairing with Heman. so therefore, the situation was as simple as having next to no reproductively viable animals, and no suitable facilities. obviously this strategy recquired a high level of regional commitment in terms of stock and infrastructure, we now have it. lets just wait and see. and please can we take an elephan breather now??? lol
melbourne, maybe as late as 1998/99 might have been able to breed. but with completely inadequate facilities, a pair of animals and no chance to even accomodate another animal. at that stage the only potential would have been in importing burma from Auckland to melbourne to be paired with an Australian bull, for which Melbourne or taronga wouldnt have had the space to house.
pre-import, this would have just left one viable female in the Australia in Perth. Perth also has a fertile, young bull. splitting up a potential pair, and nice little herd to send their female to melbourne, with no space would have been impractical and pointless.
its a tricky situation aussie zoos faced, but the asian elephant management strategy was formulated nearly tens years ago, at a time when the number of fertile animals in the country was as low as 3.1 and at a time when neither melbourne or taronga had space to approtriately house more animals.
even i wouldnt have advocated bringing Burma from NZ to say, Taronga prior to the new exhibit being built for a possible pairing with Heman. so therefore, the situation was as simple as having next to no reproductively viable animals, and no suitable facilities. obviously this strategy recquired a high level of regional commitment in terms of stock and infrastructure, we now have it. lets just wait and see. and please can we take an elephan breather now??? lol