Elephant´s management: protected contact or not?

In my 5+ years as a participant on this site I have seen this subject discussed perennially.

It is intriguing to me that the FC proponents seem to be willing to accomodate the arguments of the PC proponents, but the PC proponents are adamant that theirs is the only way.

From my observations it is obvious that most of the support for total PC management comes from people who are not actively involved in day to day elephant management.

The FC supporters seem to be the people at the coal face, the people in actual contact with elephants.

Gajah69 makes two very pertinent points:

* Experienced keepers should be able to choose which way is the best way for their particular charges.

* The PC proponents seem to be elephant centric - they ignore FC activities with large carnivores etc.

Over the five years that I have been monitoring this issue I have not seen any change in position from either side. Is it not time to now just live and let live - respect the other person's point of view and leave it at that?
 
Anti FC posters. Just stop and read what Gajah and Steve are saying. I havent seen them say they are ant PC. You seem to only read what you want. I think if you were to sit down and have a beer with these two your mind would be blown by the knowledge they have in training "wild" animals. between them there is atleast double my entire lifes worth of experience there. A resource I would love the opportunity to tap in to.

Also on a side note Dan is very right about a lack of experience coming up in younger generations. Young people are all about now now now. I feel it is this rush to work with cool animals thats aids in SOME people getting hurt. Hell Id be happy picking up **** for five years just to have the opportunity to watch an experienced elephant keeper at work. Especially if it led to being able to work them myself PC or FC safely.
 
Most Zoos will allow their keepers in with the elephants. I work at the Peoria Zoo in Illinois as a large animal educator. Now every keeper that works with elephants knows that there is a chance that those large animals could turn any second. All those keepers specifically trained to work with elephants. Memphis Zoo has 3 keepers that work just with elephants.
 
Steve Robinson said:
From my observations it is obvious that most of the support for total PC management comes from people who are not actively involved in day to day elephant management.
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This may be true on zoochat, but there are plenty of people who work with elephants day-to-day that totally prefer pc. Just that most of them stay out of public internet forums doesn`t mean they aren`t there.

Steve Robinson said:
Gajah69 makes two very pertinent points:
* Experienced keepers should be able to choose which way is the best way for their particular charges.
* The PC proponents seem to be elephant centric - they ignore FC activities with large carnivores etc.
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I assure you that I am totally against free contact with big cats too!
But since all reputable zoos (and almost all less reputable zoos, too) on my continent have stopped free contact with big cats decades ago, this topic isn`t high on my list of priorities.

The argument that keepers should choose and not be "patronized" is not valid because when things go sour, it isn`t just about the keepers. The consequences of a serious injury or death effect far more people then just the collegues of the injured person. It starts at traumatized zoo visitors, insurence problems and the threat of being sued by grieving family or fined by work safety agencies and does not stop at the public relation nightmare that the preventable death or serious injury of an employee is for a zoo.

At the moment, there are 27 zoos with elephants in Germany. Of these, at least 12 had "incidents" with elephants in free contact in the last 10 years. And this does only count problems that have become public. Some of these zoos changed to pc after that, some didn`t. Now you may tell me that elephant keepers over here are overworked or unexperienced, but even at "great" Whipsnade a keeper was injured by an elephant about 2 (?) years ago, wasn`t he? I think every zoo director who is willing to take this risk for his employees is crazy.

And all this only concentrates on the keeper safety. There is more at stake, and that is animal welfare. I havn`t heard the Whipsnade elephants rumbling, but I HAVE seen how a Whipsnade keeper repeatetly used his bullhook on a bull calf during the trunk-to-tail walk until he had serveral small but bleeding wounds on his head. And I have talked to a number of keepers who have explained to me in detail how good the change to pc was for the elephants and the herd structure. It looks like Twycross is now doing a study on it. I am very interested to see the results.
 
I gather that you are saying that the keepers who choose to work elephants PC, and who choose to stay out of public internet forums, are not forcing their choice on their colleagues who prefer to work FC. That is all that I ask. Freedom to choose which system you, as a keeper, feel most comfortable with. Not dictated to by internet "nannies".

Your arguments about what allegedly happen when things go "sour" are not entirely valid.

Management will have allowed FC in the knowledge of what their insurance situation will be. In the average zoo there will be far more claims for a range of incidents than there ever will be for an FC elephant incident.

Family and colleagues of anyone injured will be well aware of any potential risks to their family member/colleague. That is not to say that they won't feel for an injured loved one, but they certainly wouldn't have wrapped him/her in cotton wool.

The public are likely to be traumatised by a great many other things in life than elephant/human incidents. Most of them are a bit tougher than you are giving them credit for. Just cast an eye over what they watch on TV or on the video games that they play, for a start.

As for the PR nightmare - don't underestimate just how many people do see through the sop that they are fed by the media. There will, of course, always be the bleeding hearts who will agonise on social media, talk back radio or in comments sections of newspapers. When you analyse the numbers you will find that these people are very much in the minority.

If we live in a free world, the final decision must come down to the people involved. To dictate to these people smacks of a totalitarian philosophy that most people reject.

As for welfare, it is readily acknowleged that there are elephants whose welfare interests will be better served by one system or the other. I have never heard an animal person claim that FC is detrimental to a suitable elephant's welfare!

I am sure that you can talk to many keepers who are in favour of PC - for whatever reason. I respect their position. You can also talk to many keepers who favour FC. Why not respect their position?
 
My opinion is probably completelly irrelevant because I´m just a layman and also elephants are not really my "target" animals during my zoo visits. But beeing a witness of a 50-years-old docile "granny" elephant cow I know for 30 years, standing in a corner of her stall, heavilly swaying and beeing aggresivelly shouted at and repeatedly beaten with a hook by a young keeper (while another keeper was working few meters away and apparently fully ok with it) every time when she just indicated she wants to move a little bit from the corner, changed my previous positive opinion about FC by 180 degrees. The only good point is I´ve never seen that particular keeper in the zoo again. How could it happen to a cow that is called a mother hen of all elephant keepers because of her good character? They always say they can´t use her to "test" new keepers because of it. A keeping system that allowed such happenings to her will hopefully be replaced in the future.
 
Steve Robinson said:
As for the PR nightmare - don't underestimate just how many people do see through the sop that they are fed by the media.
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The problem is that AR groups and media attacking a zoo that allows FC and has a keeper injured/killed have very valueable arguments. They are not feeding their usual **** that only "bleeding hearts" buy, but make a zoo look very very bad and often the zoo will PROVE THEM RIGHT by changing the manegement system to pc!

I don`t dicate anyone to do anything. We are having a civilized discussion and exchanging arguments. I happen not to agree with you, but it is your right to argue that FC is the right method to handle elephants as it is my right to disagree and argue that it should be abandoned in favour of pc. If you don`t see a value in such a discussion, but consider it "internet nannying" maybe zoochat isn`t the right place for you.

@ Jana: thank you for your observation.
 
Yassa said:
The problem is that AR groups and media attacking a zoo that allows FC and has a keeper injured/killed have very valueable arguments. They are not feeding their usual **** that only "bleeding hearts" buy, but make a zoo look very very bad and often the zoo will PROVE THEM RIGHT by changing the manegement system to pc!

I don`t dicate anyone to do anything. We are having a civilized discussion and exchanging arguments. I happen not to agree with you, but it is your right to argue that FC is the right method to handle elephants as it is my right to disagree and argue that it should be abandoned in favour of pc. If you don`t see a value in such a discussion, but consider it "internet nannying" maybe zoochat isn`t the right place for you.

@ Jana: thank you for your observation.
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We are [or were] having a civilised discussion and exchanging viewpoints which is why I am surprised that you have taken my reference to "internet nannies" personally. You are not the only person on the internet. I enjoy our discussions and respect your position on this subject. I don't agree with it, but I would never suggest that ZooChat "isn't the right place for you" because we have opposing viewpoints.
 
I've found the innumerable threads on ZooChat discussing elephant management to be both frustrating and illuminating, as I am not involved in the zoo industry and yet during my time off as a high school teacher I've taken my family to 180 zoos in my lifetime. I am obsessed with zoos and aquariums and often find myself researching the history of both FC and PC with elephants. It is a fascinating subject and one that I've always struggled with as it seems that basic common sense is to approach the animals in captivity with only the use of PC. At the same time, there are many veteran elephant keepers that maintain the notion of FC as still being relevant in the modern zoo world and I respect their opinion but question that notion whenever a serious tragedy occurs. It seems like the trend is for a zoo to have FC, then someone is killed or maimed, and then the zoo switches to PC. Why not just initiate PC in the first place and stop a tragedy from happening? Even if FC is the better way to go then is it seriously worth the risk? Some would argue that the risk is worth it, although surely they are in the small minority these days.

Worldwide FC may still be relevant for decades to come, but in North American zoos it will eventually be extinct. Love it or loathe it, within a few years there will perhaps be 10% of elephant keepers involved in FC as the switch to PC becomes complete. That is the wave of the future and the days of keepers going in with elephants is almost at an end in North America. It will be interesting to see how progress, for better or worse, is made in European zoos, and surely many Asian zoos will continue to use FC for a long time to come as it is a way of life even for individuals not associated with zoological parks.
 
Steve Robinson said:
We are [or were] having a civilised discussion and exchanging viewpoints which is why I am surprised that you have taken my reference to "internet nannies" personally. You are not the only person on the internet. I enjoy our discussions and respect your position on this subject. I don't agree with it, but I would never suggest that ZooChat "isn't the right place for you" because we have opposing viewpoints.
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I`m glad this was just a misunderstanding on my side.
 
Yassa,
about the 'great whipsnade'. You were a spectator and therefore can only judge on what you saw that time on that day. To generalise is human but unfair. To question the use of the ankus is ok but not to us. Why didn't you follow them and ask yourself if it were that offensive?. You have no understanding of the dynamic between handler and elephant, what transpired that day or previous. These things are all too very important when managing any species in FC, dog,horse, cattle and even elephant. Elephants aren't armadillos so there skin does bleed. You have no idea of the experience of the handler. The ankus is a tool just like a bridle and bit for a horse, a collar and lead for a dog. Will we be banning those tools because they get used with gay abandon and noone seems to care about the horses with damaged mouths and minds and dogs with neck/throat injuries, let alone how many dogs have killed helpless children and the odd adult. We all still let dogs walk the streets of the world. Sheer hypocrisy.
Not saying that PC doesn't have it's place but good luck when dealing with calves that have contracted herpes virus. I reckon keep the gun loaded, because there is a slimmer chance than pigs flying that you will gain venous access and or if it can be separated from mum when compromised to begin with. This is just one very major issue that breeding herds face now and into the future, it's not going away. A trained calf can receive treatment calmly,cooperatively and most importantly safely. Of all the calves that have survived to date, they have been in FC.
This is just one example of the many reasons some elephants should be maintained in FC. The variety of health issues and examinations that can occur without waiting for the 'elephant' to decide whether it is appropriate treatment or not. In Thailand bulls,cows and calves are seen by the government vets and the array of injuries and illness is astounding and in many cases they don't have the facility or time to attempt to save these lives. Thank god there is FC or the known population may be lower. Can you describe to me how you are going to inject antibiotic, daily for possibly a week to 10 days into the teat of an elephant that has mastitis in PC.
As I always say for bulls and dangerous cows it has it's place. Unfortunately some facilities aren't good enough to complete the daily tasks well enough. That's another fight.
We sit on opposite sides of this fence and it will remain so. Just as I were trained to manage elephants, I will ensure there is a generation of handlers that can manage elephants so that when I retire this knowledge doesn't retire with me.
Cheers
 
Yassa said:
What about those elephant keepers that worked for many years in free contact and are now working in protected contact and who prefer protected contact (and blame the free contact system for all the deaths and injuries), are they not true experts too?
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Names and locations they work, please. lets see who they are, and if they are exisiting, and how long experience they have?
 
Yassa said:
By the way, the keeper who was injured in Taronga recently was the most experienced person of the keeper team. The keeper who was almost killed in Toledo 2 years ago was also a senior keeper with many years experience. The keeper attacked in Dresden in 2010 was a senior keeper and the head keeper was present and couldn`t stop the attack. The keeper killed in Vienna in 2005 was the head keeper. And this are just a few examples from the last years (not complete, just from my memory).
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Steve Robinson said:
This is not true, Yassa.
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I agree with Steve:

1. for the record regarding the Taronga keeper:
"cite: I have few videos from Taronga, and this place is nightmare!!
that XX was causing most of the troubles. kissing elephants, talking to them like to children, spoiling them... no discipline in training"

2. I have no insight in Toledo. But I will look into this.

3. You write: "keeper attacked in Dresden in 2010 was a senior keeper".
this woman happend to be a previous girlfriend of mine. I actually gave her first basic advice in elephant training during my time as consultant in Dresden 1999. I dont think she regarded herself as senior keeper, and I dont. Definitely she did not belong to europes most experienced keepers.
Apart from that, which gives substance to my previous words, that free contact keepers have too less power to control their working environment. Because that elephant had already showed aggressive behaviour to another female keeper, but was not sold or transfered to another zoo. This means the keepers were in an situation where they had less control of the situation. They should have transfered that gull calf much earlier.

4. The keeper killed in Vienna, was also one my closest friend, and we were collegues, when I was consulting in Vienna in 1998.
Although he was headkeeper, changes were made, over his head, when he was on holliday. The elephant who killed him was separated from the mother. He used to give them shower together, but when he rerturned from 3 weeks abcense, he had to face a new situation, with the elephant calf separated from the mother. There was also manpower lacking, due to sick leave, and he returned to work one day earliter than planned, and when he showered the young elephant calf, for the first time without the mother present, he was killed. Now and then, other keepers accused him to spoil that elephant calf.

Apart from Toledo, where I lack firsta hand knowldge, the other three cases are involved 2-3 year old bulls, all captive born. They grew up with the keepers they killed. They killed the "weakest" keeper, who spoiled them most. The keeeprs also had to adjust to a new, populair point of view, that all elephants born ina zoo, shall grow up with the group, and not be sent away.

I mean, that this idea was not invented by keepers, its an idea from curators, and other people who cn make decisions, bu dont work daily hands on with their elephants.

Allt those theoretical people put the hands on keepers in risks.

And the laymen outside the zoo, often claim its the managenemt system thats the reaons behind the accidents, but it isnt.

* In Taronga, to my knowledge, no other elephant, except that captive born bull elephant calf, ever attacked any keepers.

* In Dresden, to my knowledge, no other elephant, except that captive born bull elephant calf, ever attacked any keepers.

* In Vienna, to my knowledge, no other elephant, except that captive born bull elephant calf, ever attacked any keepers.

Human-elephant conflicts in zoos are individual problems, and should be regarded as such.

The people risking their lifes, the free contact keepers, should have much more possibility to control their working environment, nut just be forced to adjust to whatever idea that people outside the stable get in their heads.
 
DanKoehl said:
I agree with Steve:

1. for the record regarding the Taronga keeper:
"cite: I have few videos from Taronga, and this place is nightmare!!
that XX was causing most of the troubles. kissing elephants, talking to them like to children, spoiling them... no discipline in training"

2. I have no insight in Toledo. But I will look into this.

3. You write: "keeper attacked in Dresden in 2010 was a senior keeper".
this woman happend to be a previous girlfriend of mine. I actually gave her first basic advice in elephant training during my time as consultant in Dresden 1999. I dont think she regarded herself as senior keeper, and I dont. Definitely she did not belong to europes most experienced keepers.
Apart from that, which gives substance to my previous words, that free contact keepers have too less power to control their working environment. Because that elephant had already showed aggressive behaviour to another female keeper, but was not sold or transfered to another zoo. This means the keepers were in an situation where they had less control of the situation. They should have transfered that gull calf much earlier.

4. The keeper killed in Vienna, was also one my closest friend, and we were collegues, when I was consulting in Vienna in 1998.
Although he was headkeeper, changes were made, over his head, when he was on holliday. The elephant who killed him was separated from the mother. He used to give them shower together, but when he rerturned from 3 weeks abcense, he had to face a new situation, with the elephant calf separated from the mother. There was also manpower lacking, due to sick leave, and he returned to work one day earliter than planned, and when he showered the young elephant calf, for the first time without the mother present, he was killed. Now and then, other keepers accused him to spoil that elephant calf.

Apart from Toledo, where I lack firsta hand knowldge, the other three cases are involved 2-3 year old bulls, all captive born. They grew up with the keepers they killed. They killed the "weakest" keeper, who spoiled them most. The keeeprs also had to adjust to a new, populair point of view, that all elephants born ina zoo, shall grow up with the group, and not be sent away.

I mean, that this idea was not invented by keepers, its an idea from curators, and other people who cn make decisions, bu dont work daily hands on with their elephants.

Allt those theoretical people put the hands on keepers in risks.

And the laymen outside the zoo, often claim its the managenemt system thats the reaons behind the accidents, but it isnt.

* In Taronga, to my knowledge, no other elephant, except that captive born bull elephant calf, ever attacked any keepers.

* In Dresden, to my knowledge, no other elephant, except that captive born bull elephant calf, ever attacked any keepers.

* In Vienna, to my knowledge, no other elephant, except that captive born bull elephant calf, ever attacked any keepers.

Human-elephant conflicts in zoos are individual problems, and should be regarded as such.

The people risking their lifes, the free contact keepers, should have much more possibility to control their working environment, nut just be forced to adjust to whatever idea that people outside the stable get in their heads.
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So the question this raises is: many "excepts" are acceptable? Most insurance companies and personal injury lawyers would say "none."
 
Here is my question again: Why do we need FC in Zoos? (I would love to hear some arguments!)

For sure not for the amusement of some keepers. And yes this is an elephant centric issue and not connected to other animals. There are significant differences in social structure and behavior to e.g. big cats. So if elephants fare better in PC a good keeper will chose to care for them in PC.
Imho, they do not need to bond to or be dominated by a keeper, instead they need to have an intact social group of elephants. Why not mimic the situation in the wild?

You can do most of the medical treatments too. It just requires training of your animals. I guess here you will see the differences between good and bad PC.

Just watch how Pambo is trained, and that is surely not the end of the line in PC:

Some other recent example being Tusker in Wuppertal which daily received a few shots of antibiotics intramuscularly while acutely infected by salmonella.

P.S.: I would rather compare the ankus to a whip.
 
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Daniel said:
You can do most of the medical treatments too. It just requires training of your animals. I guess here you will see the differences between good and bad PC.

Just watch how Pambo is trained, and that is surely not the end of the line in PC: Elefante entrenado (Cabárceno 2.012) - YouTube
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No, you can not do most of the medical treatments in PC.
No, Pambo is NOT trained on that film, I trained him to do that back in 1998.

Icehookey and football should NOT be played by the visiting public, it should be played by the players. EVEN if the public doesnt understand why they play like they do.
 
Jana said:
My opinion is probably completelly irrelevant because I´m just a layman and also elephants are not really my "target" animals during my zoo visits.
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Again, let us be so happy that not Pilots, hearts surgeons, and Police offcers work are affected by public opinion from laymen.

If the public visitors, who never played football and icehockey themselves, would decide how the football and icehockey players should play the game, it would end up like elephant management has now.
 
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