taun
Well-Known Member
Ah such a shame.
Please if they release a more detailed report can someone post it up here.
Dierenpark Emmen (Closed) Emmen Zoo news
- Thread starter UntBwe
- Start date
Ah such a shame.
Please if they release a more detailed report can someone post it up here.
Elephant Annabelle has broken her neck during the fall in the dry moat. She also had worn joints, which may have played a role with her falling in the moat.
Hart van Nederland - Dierentuin Emmen in rouw
This is a direct link to some movieclips about annabel, one taken while she was lying in the moat, filmed by a visitor.
Hart van Nederland - Dierentuin Emmen in rouw
This is a direct link to some movieclips about annabel, one taken while she was lying in the moat, filmed by a visitor.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
Against some fairly stiff competition, this has to be the most moronic comment I have encountered on this site.
What is your point? That the elephant somehow deserved to die, because oif the way in which her enclosure was designed? Good grief!
Didn't you receive a permanent ban for this kind of remarks on a Dutch forum?
The enclosures at Emmen may be not according to the latest guideliness, but this is something you should have been advocating beforehand if you are so tough in your comments, not now when the accident has happened. If you were aware and didn't do anything (like posting problems on the internet) to change things, you are to blame as well.
safariman
Well-Known Member
Well, it's the second dead elephant over there because off this dry moat.
@sooty mangabey: ofcourse the animal did't deserve this.
My point is that they didn't re-shape the moat directly after the first dead elephant. Just now after the second they are considering it. Bit late .... in my view.
@sooty mangabey: ofcourse the animal did't deserve this.
My point is that they didn't re-shape the moat directly after the first dead elephant. Just now after the second they are considering it. Bit late .... in my view.
Your comments are a bit rich here and out of place, here. No-one urged the Emmen Zoo to rebuild its elephant moat before this accident. You are right that it was the second incident of sorts in Emmen Zoo. But to blame management for not remodelling the exhibit after the first incident after all these years is a bit too rich for my liking. If you want to be bashful go to all these sites where you can complain, complain and flush your frustration down the drain - and not respecting anyone in the process -.
Anyway to go back on topic: the individual fell into the the dry moat (fact), and EEP/EAZA recommendations are that no dry moats or depth of 1,75 mtr. be build (fact).
So, what is your point here in hindsight? Congratulations on getting it right, my dear! Show me the money now!!!!!
Anyway to go back on topic: the individual fell into the the dry moat (fact), and EEP/EAZA recommendations are that no dry moats or depth of 1,75 mtr. be build (fact).
So, what is your point here in hindsight? Congratulations on getting it right, my dear! Show me the money now!!!!!
safariman
Well-Known Member
Anyway to go back on topic: the individual fell into the the dry moat (fact), and EEP/EAZA recommendations are that no dry moats or depth of 1,75 mtr. be build (fact).
So, what is your point here in hindsight? Congratulations on getting it right, my dear! Show me the money now!!!!!
Recommended depth: no deeper than 1,40 meters (fact). Recommended, wide at least 3 meters (Emmen is narrow: fact)... Recommended in general: no dry moats at all (fact).
You don't have to be a genious to figure out that something should happen there. Well, they are considering to change the moat now, so better late then not at all. Thats my point: They are late! Unfortunately too late for this animal. Don't shoot the messenger...
Where was this messenger when it would have made a difference?
Now that was exactly my point here too! 
It is so ***** blinkered easy to come up with the solutions in hindsight. Especially, if you are not a zoo-commercial director with various demands by staff, animals, new exhibits et cetera and the unforeseen to boggle the financial coffers 10 times over. Emmen Zoo has not exactly seen good economic times with largescale job cuts over the last few years (strangely enough well visited in the same period).
I wish our friend here would come up with the money to build the new elephant habitat now ...
It is so ***** blinkered easy to come up with the solutions in hindsight. Especially, if you are not a zoo-commercial director with various demands by staff, animals, new exhibits et cetera and the unforeseen to boggle the financial coffers 10 times over. Emmen Zoo has not exactly seen good economic times with largescale job cuts over the last few years (strangely enough well visited in the same period).
I wish our friend here would come up with the money to build the new elephant habitat now ...
black-star
Well-Known Member
Who says it isn't already been said against Emmen zoo?
We will never know....
'
They aren't 'late'. Accidents occur. The first elephant calf who fell in there, was pushed by his father. His father could also have crushed him against a wall, or trampled him. They made an adaptation, they build an separate enclosure for the elephant bull! Because the guidelines say so, doesn't mean the guidelines aren't automatically right. Elephants are too smart to fall in a ditch, all the other elephants that fall in are adolescent ones, who play a little to rough, and don't notice their surroundings. They fall in, don't get woundend ( except for some bruises), and the caretakers guide them out. So, the dry moat is not unsafe! A better solution would be to keep the adolescent bulls more separated from the herd somehow, they are the problem, not the ditch.
Within a healty group there are also little buls needed, little kids are just a part of the group... 
safariman
Well-Known Member
The guidelines are written very careful by a group of people that are experts in husbandry, in this case for elephants. Send around to lots of people (vets, curators etc etc) to give comments on the drafts before it is published. There is no reason to question the statement that you should not want to keep this animals after a dry moat in my opinion. Are you a member of the elephant TAG who approves the guidelines..? guess not. So stop defending an old-skool exibit. Within the zoo-community it is often criticised, this exhibit, but they ignored changing. But okay, you can have your own idea ofcourse, but within the zoo-community this is considored as a very old fasion exhibit.
@Elly, the messenger has been there!! Not in my person, but elephant experts. Pretty stupid to ignore their advise in my opinion.
Since emmen has a lot of experience in keeping elephants, and the facts that were the real cause of the annabel and bo guy accidents, I would say emmen is quite right. A dry moat may not be the most ideal way of separation anymore, but it's far from unsafe. Indeed, emmen will not use this kind of separation in the new exhibit, but I do not believe a dry moat to be unsafer than a waterpond. Elephants are able to swim, but when two youngsters are playing in the water, the risk of one drowning during play is not unimaginable. Guidelines are not sacred, are not necessarily right.
Within a healty group there are also little buls needed, little kids are just a part of the group...
That's right, I did not say to permanently separate them, but in an elephant eclosure playing adeolsecents apparently can cause trouble. So it would be good thing to think about ways to let youngsters play without disturbing the herd, or to separate them during some parts of the day in a sort of creche like facility, linked to the exhibit. There are more roads going to rome
Since playing adolescents were the real cause of the accident, it's pointless to discuss the safety of the moat.
Within a healty group there are also little buls needed, little kids are just a part of the group...
That's right, I did not say to permanently separate them, but in an elephant eclosure playing adeolsecents apparently can cause trouble. So it would be good thing to think about ways to let youngsters play without disturbing the herd, or to separate them during some parts of the day in a sort of creche like facility, linked to the exhibit. There are more roads going to rome
Since playing adolescents were the real cause of the accident, it's pointless to discuss the safety of the moat.What you are suggesting is totally unnatural and is NOT going to solve the problem. Your assumption that playing youngsters are the only cause for the accident is wrong and that the herd would be safe without them, there are other situations exept playing bull calves that can cause moat accidents. Elephants have been injured and died in moats in all-female herds! Just last year, in 2008, the oldest elephant in europe, Vilja, fell into the dry moat in Stuttgart Zoo and it took serveral hours to get her back to her feet. She survived, but this example shows very well that even in a herd of just 4 older females (age 42-60!!) such accidents can and do happen.
I can understand very well that you like Emmen and don`t want to think bad of the zoo, I feel the same, but the only and true cause oof the accident was the steep moat, nothing else. It is normal in an elephant herd that youngsters are playing rough, or that bull elephants chase females prior to mating (I don`t think Radza is doing chasing, but usually that is part of the mating ritual - the bull chases the female, who runs away, and only after some time she will stand and allow the bull to mate), or that even adult females push each other, be it playful or in a row. elephant enclosures must take this into account.
It is since long known that dry moats are only safe when there is a gentle slope on the elephant`s side. Water moats and pools should always have a shallow shore, too, then the danger of an elephant drowning is about ZERO. The only case in which an elephant could drown in a pool/moat with a shallow edge on all sides is when a newborn fells in. Which is one reason why most zoos keep their elephants inside for births and secure ponds with a hotwire fence or keep it half-empty until the calf is a little stronger.
The mistake in Emmen was made a long time ago, when they built the current enclosure. And again when the people who are in charge today decided not to do anything and just hope nothing wold happen until the new enclosure was ready. It`s not that I can`t understand that; changing the profile of the ditch to make it safe (= gentle egde around the enclosure) is neither cheap nor easy, and the risk of an elephant actually dying in the old steep moat was very small. Just now it has happenend, and I hope they are going to do something to keep the other elephants safe until they can move. And I do hope very much that all other zoos that still have such kinds of moast will start making plans to change something too!!!
I can understand very well that you like Emmen and don`t want to think bad of the zoo, I feel the same, but the only and true cause oof the accident was the steep moat, nothing else. It is normal in an elephant herd that youngsters are playing rough, or that bull elephants chase females prior to mating (I don`t think Radza is doing chasing, but usually that is part of the mating ritual - the bull chases the female, who runs away, and only after some time she will stand and allow the bull to mate), or that even adult females push each other, be it playful or in a row. elephant enclosures must take this into account.
It is since long known that dry moats are only safe when there is a gentle slope on the elephant`s side. Water moats and pools should always have a shallow shore, too, then the danger of an elephant drowning is about ZERO. The only case in which an elephant could drown in a pool/moat with a shallow edge on all sides is when a newborn fells in. Which is one reason why most zoos keep their elephants inside for births and secure ponds with a hotwire fence or keep it half-empty until the calf is a little stronger.
The mistake in Emmen was made a long time ago, when they built the current enclosure. And again when the people who are in charge today decided not to do anything and just hope nothing wold happen until the new enclosure was ready. It`s not that I can`t understand that; changing the profile of the ditch to make it safe (= gentle egde around the enclosure) is neither cheap nor easy, and the risk of an elephant actually dying in the old steep moat was very small. Just now it has happenend, and I hope they are going to do something to keep the other elephants safe until they can move. And I do hope very much that all other zoos that still have such kinds of moast will start making plans to change something too!!!
safariman
Well-Known Member
Send your application to the elephant TAG I suggest. You seem to feel that you are a real expert. Should I predict an outcome? Nope...
@Yassa. Emmen does see her big and awfull mistake and lucky enough the new enclosure does'nt have a dry moat. Lets say: Too bad for this cow, but no real problem for the EEP, it's just an elephant by the end and no more than any animal.... the future is better... I hope..
Your last scentense makes sence!@ safariman and yassa, both accidents that have occured in the moat were an accumulation of circumstances. Even if emmen had a moat with a gentle slope, annabel landed on her back. The 3000 kilograms of elephant broke her neck after that. The zoostaff didn't recognize it because she was stuck in the moat, that's true, but the outcome would probably have been the same. The fact that when a youngster falls in, and doesn't hurt itself ( except for some bruises) proves that the moat is not unsafe for the ones who are at most risk of falling in. And don't you think that if the caretakers , and some of them have decades of experience here in emmen, really thought it was unsafe, they wouldn't put pressure on the direction to change things? They are the real experts in my opinion!
The moat is not the most ideal way of separation, I agree, but to consider it as a danger to elephants is too far fetched, and the statistics prove emmen right. The fact that it's technically impossible to put a sandfloor in the barn is a greater risk to the elephants health ( but that's something that was not known when they build the barn), but luckily they want to change that in the new enclosure.
The moat is not the most ideal way of separation, I agree, but to consider it as a danger to elephants is too far fetched, and the statistics prove emmen right. The fact that it's technically impossible to put a sandfloor in the barn is a greater risk to the elephants health ( but that's something that was not known when they build the barn), but luckily they want to change that in the new enclosure.
UntBwe
Well-Known Member
Normally an elephant doesn't fall into any ditch. The bearly one year old Bo Gyi was kicked into it and poor Annabel lost her balance due to arthrosis after pushing by the playing youngsters.
If she was healthy probably nothing happened, and nobody was blaming the zoo for the way it keeps the elephants. After all those years I visited the zoo I never heard anyone complaining about the ditch. But since Annabel fell into it dozens of 'experts' are shouting and blaming the zoo (as usual).
Where were you before? Are you also telling the zoo about other enclosures which are probably not according the guidelines of today? Or are you waiting for other accidents to happen?
Rotterdam had a gorilla enclosure according to the guidelines, but one gorilla ignored it and jumped over the ditch. An ill lion in the same zoo of Rotterdam fell into the water and drowned. A monkey in Safari Beekse Bergen was eaten by a bear. A giraf in Amersfoort fell and broke his leg. Are all these enclosures not build according to the guidelines? What about accidents between keepers and animals? How many elephant keepers died in 'safe' enclosures?
Guidelines are just guidelines, nothing more. Sometimes the animals are capable to things we can't imagine, and sometimes accidents occure. Even the safest enclosure isn't safe enough!
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Annabel was one of the friendliest elephants of Emmen. She was a perfect leader, always keeping an eye on the young ones. Her best friend was Swe San Htay, who is suffering from arthritis. When she had to much pain, Annabel was standing nearby to comfort her. At the end of the day, when all elephants are going inside, it was always Annabel who was the last one to leave the outside enclosure after she checked if everyone left it.
She was also the one who liked to be 'hugged' by the caregivers, and I know they are missing her.
Annabel lived for almost 43 years in Emmen. She came after Barbara left the zoo, and Annabel was alone for many years. In 1967 Emmen bought a little elephant called Rosa but unfortunately she died after a few months. In 1972 an African elephant, Suzan, arrived but after a couple of years she began to fight with Annabel and wounded her very bad. Annabel had to large scars on both sides because due to the fights with Suzan. The African left in 1980. In 1981 Hella came, followed in 1986 by Zitta. The three became good friends. But the best time for Annabel began in 1988 when 7 young elephants came to Emmen and after the new enclosure was build, she finally moved from her cramped exhibit to the large one. She loved all those young elephants.
It's very sad that she isn't present when the new enclosure in 2013 or so is ready for use. I'm sure she would love it.
Rest in peace dear Annabel, you'll be missed.
If she was healthy probably nothing happened, and nobody was blaming the zoo for the way it keeps the elephants. After all those years I visited the zoo I never heard anyone complaining about the ditch. But since Annabel fell into it dozens of 'experts' are shouting and blaming the zoo (as usual).
Where were you before? Are you also telling the zoo about other enclosures which are probably not according the guidelines of today? Or are you waiting for other accidents to happen?
Rotterdam had a gorilla enclosure according to the guidelines, but one gorilla ignored it and jumped over the ditch. An ill lion in the same zoo of Rotterdam fell into the water and drowned. A monkey in Safari Beekse Bergen was eaten by a bear. A giraf in Amersfoort fell and broke his leg. Are all these enclosures not build according to the guidelines? What about accidents between keepers and animals? How many elephant keepers died in 'safe' enclosures?
Guidelines are just guidelines, nothing more. Sometimes the animals are capable to things we can't imagine, and sometimes accidents occure. Even the safest enclosure isn't safe enough!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Annabel was one of the friendliest elephants of Emmen. She was a perfect leader, always keeping an eye on the young ones. Her best friend was Swe San Htay, who is suffering from arthritis. When she had to much pain, Annabel was standing nearby to comfort her. At the end of the day, when all elephants are going inside, it was always Annabel who was the last one to leave the outside enclosure after she checked if everyone left it.
She was also the one who liked to be 'hugged' by the caregivers, and I know they are missing her.
Annabel lived for almost 43 years in Emmen. She came after Barbara left the zoo, and Annabel was alone for many years. In 1967 Emmen bought a little elephant called Rosa but unfortunately she died after a few months. In 1972 an African elephant, Suzan, arrived but after a couple of years she began to fight with Annabel and wounded her very bad. Annabel had to large scars on both sides because due to the fights with Suzan. The African left in 1980. In 1981 Hella came, followed in 1986 by Zitta. The three became good friends. But the best time for Annabel began in 1988 when 7 young elephants came to Emmen and after the new enclosure was build, she finally moved from her cramped exhibit to the large one. She loved all those young elephants.
It's very sad that she isn't present when the new enclosure in 2013 or so is ready for use. I'm sure she would love it.
Rest in peace dear Annabel, you'll be missed.