European (Tea)Cup - League A - Artis vs Paris Zoo & Menagerie

[TeaLovingDave]

After a short breather, the Paris duo returns to the playing field in order to face off against a zoo which - much like the Menagerie - is among the oldest surviving zoological collections anywhere in the world.

The category is a nice broad one with plenty of scope for discussion - BIRDS - so hopefully this will be one of the more lively matches!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

A preliminary gut-feeling 3:2 vote for Artis to start things off, methinks - although it has been over seven years since my last (and only) visit to the collection, I recall being rather impressed with the bird exhibits at Artis, whilst those at the Paris pair left me fairly cold for the most part. The two unusual bustard species at the Menagerie definitely earn Paris a point on their own, however

Hopefully arguments from those more familiar with both competitors will be shortly forthcoming, which will allow me to judge how reliable my initial gut feeling is and hence whether or not my vote should stand or be modified!

 

[pipaluk]

According to ZTL, Artis has 79 ,to Menagerie 53 and zoo 60, with a few of those probably held at both it is pretty close collection wise

 

[Philipine eagle]

Paris bird collection pleases me more: Lazuli bunting, Squara heron, Burnished-buff tanager, Blue grosbeak, Black-headed grosbeak, Spur-winged lapwing, 3 curassow species (Blue-throated piping guan, Great and Yellow-knobbed), 2 turaco, Green-backed heron, 3 hornbill, Philippine cockatoo, Little bustard, Palm cockatoo, Asian Houbara, Painted bunting, Pin-tailed sandgrouse : most of these are rare in Europe.

There is little artis can do to counter that:: Blue ground-dove, Lesser kestrel, Wreathed hornbill

Based on quality this is a 4-1 win in favor of Paris

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

With this match, "Birds" becomes the fifth category to be contested in all four groups.

 

[Kalaw]

According to ZTL, Artis has 79 ,to Menagerie 53 and zoo 60, with a few of those probably held at both it is pretty close collection wise

I could be wrong (may go through the species lists later if I have time), but I doubt there is too much overlap between the Menagerie and Zoo, with the former being mainly Asian, North American and Australasian species, and the latter being African, European and South American in focus. From memory, geographical accuracy was fairly strong throughout, including amongst the avian collection.

I know very little about Artis, but I was quite impressed by several of the avian displays at the two Paris zoos on my visit; the Grand Voliere at the Menagerie is beautiful, I liked seeing flamingos enabled full flight with the backdrop of the remarkable Great Rock, and the vulture aviary, also adjacent to the Rock, is amongst the finest that I have seen. Couple that with a very impressive collection with several rarities, and I will be voting 3-2 to Paris for the time being, but very open to persuasion. Paris is far from flawless here, with pinioned birds such as ground hornbills on their two African Savannahs, and the lack of a traditional bird house, whereas Artis has what seems to be an excellent one; furthermore, although there were some birds in the Serre Tropicale, it did seem to be quite sparsely populated for a tropical house of its size, and would certainly benefit from more free-fliers and better landscaping.

 

[snowleopard]

I've not been to either of the Paris zoos, but I will highlight a few structures in Amsterdam. Maybe someone can do the same for the French zoos.

The historic Bird House at Artis Royal Zoo has some gorgeous outdoor attached aviaries as well as 3 main indoor rooms.

@16217

@16217

@twilighter

Elsewhere, the Griffon Vulture aviary is so long that it's difficult to get a photo of it in its entirety.

@vogelcommando

At one point, it's possible for vultures to be above visitors.

The big Dutch Grasslands aviary is also exceptional.

@vogelcommando

The 1922 aviary complex for Snowy Owls and Red-crowned Cranes is memorable.

 

[lintworm]

Paris bird collection pleases me more: Lazuli bunting, Squara heron, Burnished-buff tanager, Blue grosbeak, Black-headed grosbeak, Spur-winged lapwing, 3 curassow species (Blue-throated piping guan, Great and Yellow-knobbed), 2 turaco, Green-backed heron, 3 hornbill, Philippine cockatoo, Little bustard, Palm cockatoo, Asian Houbara, Painted bunting, Pin-tailed sandgrouse : most of these are rare in Europe.

There is little artis can do to counter that:: Blue ground-dove, Lesser kestrel, Wreathed hornbill

Based on quality this is a 4-1 win in favor of Paris

You are missing a few rarely kept species that Artis keeps such as the crested bobwhite, collared kingfisher, red-billed curassow, red-tailed amazon & stock dove. Those are equally rare as some of the species you list and I probably miss a few others. So even while the Paris zoos do have the collection with more rarities, the difference is smaller than you imply... Many of the rare passerines in Paris are also present in low numbers being confiscated animals which are simply released in the tropical hall. So while many rarities are kept, visibility of them is low (based on my own experience).

 

[TeaLovingDave]

many of the rare passerines in Paris are also present in low numbers being confiscated animals which are simply released in the tropical hall. So while many rarities are kept, visibility of them is low (based on my own experience).

Indeed; it's not all that dissimilar to the situation at Dvur Kralove where the ZTL listings are jam-packed with bird oddities which are customs seizures, generally singletons and often off-display, and which in many cases are no longer present n any case.

I've not been to either of the Paris zoos, but I will highlight a few structures in Amsterdam. Maybe someone can do the same for the French zoos.

Cheers - I reckon that these images make it very clear that whichever way the vote goes, the quality at Artis makes it a pretty close thing, and that a 4:1 vote in either direction is unjustified.

 

[lintworm]

Apart from the pictures already shown by @snowleopard there is another significant bird complex in Artis, the pheasantry and the adjacent Masman house (a former summer house predating the zoo and housing birds sinds 1863). This area is (like most structures in the zoo) a monument and was renovated some 10 years ago:

@twilighter - The inner lane has lower aviaries with mostly smaller tropical species.

@vogelcommando - The outer aviaries on either size are of greater height and house groups of blue-throated macaws (pictured here) and scarlet + puna ibis on the other side

It is hard to find a proper picture of the Masman house with aviaries for ground hornbill (the only one I find too small for its inhabitants) and ocellated turkey among others:

@vogelcommando

The former primate house is now mainly a walkthrough, but also has some birds in there like guira cuckoo & burrowing owl:

@vogelcommando

The outdoor enclosures now hold galliforms, with Himalayan monal & satyr tragopan on the outside aviaries

@vogelcommando

and Red-billed curassow in the centre, which is more a greenhouse than an aviary:

@vogelcommando

The other area were birds are concentrated is the Metzelaarskas which houses a variety of Asian species like crowned pigeon, collared kingfisher, red junglefowl and more. This tropical greenhouse isn't really represented by a proper picture, but this is the best around:

@Susan Humphreys

Apart from that there are ratites in standard enclosures, African penguin & northern gannet in a large enclosure with a too shallow pool and Caribbean flamingo in an open-topped exhibit. But by and large most birds in Artis live in beautifully restaurated monumental buildings which are well-planted and thoughtfully designed in general.

Whereas Paris has some nice exhibits, especially the larger flight cages and a fun old-fashioned pheasantry in the Jardin des Plantes. There are a few things I dislike, that includes the numerous pinioned birds in with hoofstock and the small and boring bird-of-prey, parrot and owl aviaries in the Jardin des Plantes. Compared to the fresh-looking displays in Artis, they look very tired.

Owl aviary example:

@Austin the Sengi

Palm cockatoo

@Buldeo

Bird of prey aviaries:

@ralph

So quantity is for Paris, but quality is consistently higher in Artis in my opinion.

 

[PossumRoach]

Maybe I have very little say in this since I never visited Vinceness and only visited the menagerie when I was a kid who really didn’t know any better, and therefore cannot provide a sound and compelling argument as some other users here do. However nothing about the Paris zoos screams “BIRDS” to me. I mean sure they have a lot of birds, as many major zoos do, but I never heard people discuss anything from Paris that makes the bird collection stand out other than their rarities. When I saw pictures of Vincennes from a friend I was like “neat” but I wasn’t gobsmacked or anything and the bad weather during their visit didn’t help either.

So that’s 3 to Artis and 2 to Paris from me, not because of Artis’s strengths but because of Paris’ weakness.

 

[Philipine eagle]

You are missing a few rarely kept species that Artis keeps such as the crested bobwhite, collared kingfisher, red-billed curassow, red-tailed amazon & stock dove. Those are equally rare as some of the species you list and I probably miss a few others.

That's a fair remark as I did indeed forget these.

So even while the Paris zoos do have the collection with more rarities, the difference is smaller than you imply... Many of the rare passerines in Paris are also present in low numbers being confiscated animals which are simply released in the tropical hall. So while many rarities are kept, visibility of them is low (based on my own experience).

I don't really understand why how the birds got into the collection should play a role in judging in the context of this contest.

I certainly did not find the aviaries in Artis overwhelming during my last visit (circa 2016) but based on the comments I am changing my vote from 4-1 to 3-2, still in favor of Paris. Quantity over quality in favor of Artis, I disagree: as far as I personally am concerned, the collection in Paris is not only better but it is more in line with my personal interests.

 

[lintworm]

I don't really understand why how the birds got into the collection should play a role in judging in the context of this contest.

I don't think it matters that the birds originate from confiscations. My point was that you just post a list of rarities and say 4-1 Paris. But at least for me a list of rarities is quite meaningless, it matters how they are exhibited. All the small passerines you mention are just released in the tropical hall and most are represented by very small numbers. So yes they have them (and they count for the challenge), but from my perspective they could almost just as well have not been there, as finding them is a big task. That makes having them count far less for me then e.g. the sociable weaver colony at Basel would. That is also a species that is very rare in captivity, but you are guaranteed to see a group of them in a very engaging display.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

A very tight one, right up until the very end:

Artis - 52/105 points - 49.524%
Paris - 53/105 points - 50.4761%
.