European (Tea)Cup - League A - Artis vs Vienna

[TeaLovingDave]

So, the first match pits two of the oldest zoological collections in the world head-to-head, and on a very broad subject - AFRICA and all this entails.

There are a lot of angles at which one may choose to approach the question of how to choose where to assign your votes - species, exhibits, conservation - but I will remind you all of one long-standing rule - future plans and developments at a collection are out of bounds for consideration, and it is the current status quo which we are discussing and voting on. For instance, if either Pairi Daiza or Beauval were to be assigned the category of "Primates" at some point, the upcoming Golden Snub-nosed Monkeys would not be permissible as a reason to vote for them until they have actually arrived. Similarly, if a large area is currently under construction or redevelopment, it is ineligible for consideration.

Another point which bears repeating from my introductory post: if one gives a 5-0 vote, you MUST provide appropriate justification for this in-thread. Any such votes which are either unexplained, or break the rules of fair play in some fashion, will be void.

You have three days to discuss, debate and vote - enjoy!

 

[twilighter]

I love Artis Scimitar-horned Oryx opening exhibit, but I don't believe that they can mach the African diversity of Schönbrunn. Two classic city collections that look into the future. Point for Vienna.

 

[StoppableSan]

I visited ARTIS when their new African lion exhibit was under construction, and visited Vienna at its current state with no construction in their African area. (Until they end up building their rumored new elephant complex, which won't be for a while.)

ARTIS starts off strong with an inventive redesign of their old Domestics paddock for their scimitar-horned oryx, and their savanna section with wildebeest, Grevy's zebras, kudu, Ankole-watusi and reticulated giraffe has some nice modern architecture juxtaposed with classic Dutch architecture for the giraffe barn. The way the path sinks down and gets you at the water level with the savanna and the neighboring Asian elephant enclosure is delightful! Artis' gorilla enclosure is a nice old-school design, the chimps could use some work and their mandrill exhibit... yeesh. I saw the old Kerbertterras back when it had lions, and it was pretty tiny to say the least.

Vienna has a majority African collection within their Rotunda (save for giant pandas/red pandas, tigers, koalas, wallabies and Rat House), and beautifully melds classic zoo design with modern zoo design. I actually really liked the quality of the rockwork in some of the more recently renovated spaces (hippos, cheetahs and lions), though I will say that the giraffes could have used more outdoor space than the majority being a chain-link fenced yard in the same vein as Alipore Zoo. The Elephant Park at Vienna was ambitious for its time, and I loved reading about its history, though that being said it's time for another expansion - and I'm curious what they'll end up utilizing the current Elephant Park space for. Maybe moving the giraffes over or even getting gorillas to pair with the neighboring Monkey House, gibbon/lemur islands and Orang.erie... but I digress.

It's tough because neither zoo really has a "dedicated" African section with the Rotunda deviating heavily from the theme with the aforementioned non-African species, (though I did see signage for Gambian pouched rat - but I believe that space has something else temporarily there now, forget what it is) and ARTIS having a more taxonomic/"classic zoo" layout, but I'd have to give it to Vienna for having a stronger overall African collection and a more consistent presentation.

 

[lintworm]

This is a fairly close match and if it weren't for the gorillas and chimpanzees at Artis I might have given them the edge...

Many of Vienna's weaknesses are African: their African elephant exhibit might be the weakest exhibit by now and the hippo and lion exhibits aren't great either. Their African walkthrough in the bird house is still impressive, but the collection is a shade of what it was. But Vienna also has the impressive barbary macaque & barbary sheep exhibit, the historic savanna exhibits and the small but wonderful East Africa house. The highlight might be the massive sengi + tortoise exhibit in the desert house.

Artis can counter with new and nicely constructed scimitar-horned oryx & lion enclosures, a savanna of their own as well an African desert-themed walkthrough in their historic bird house which is really quite nice. But the chimpanzee and gorilla enclosures really are substandard...

 

[aardvark250]

I'll give Vienna the edge for a simple reason. The Rotunda. One of the most iconic zoo exhibit and even though its not the best exhibits for the inhabitants in europe it certainly got its own charm.

 

[PossumRoach]

I visited Artis in 2012 and 2022

I visited Schönbrunn in 2022.

As mentioned above, the enclosures are not the best for both zoos which will initially put both to the same playing field.

Let’s talk species. Artis, to my memory, has African penguins, gorillas(+diana monkeys), chimps, and mandrills which might give the zoo some boost. But as mentioned above the simians aren’t really kept in what one might call eye candy.

Aris also loses a point for using watusi cattle for their African grassland enclosure. I usually am not one of those “wildlife purists” who get salty over zoos having farm areas or breeding programs for rare and endangered livestock taking up space. But there’s something somethings about using watusi cattle as if it’s supposed to be a substitute for a wild species that rubs me the wrong way. It’s like using llamas and alpacas in a South American enclosure.

Despite their underwhelming enclosures, I will give Schönbrunn a point for the presence of two “basic” species: African elephants and Nile hippopotamuses. While I obviously don’t associate elephants with Africa alone, I am sure that many normies will still associate elephants with primarily Africa. Not to mention while both contenders have elephants next to their savannah enclosure (rotunda in case on Schönbrunn), Schönbrunn having Africans makes the elephant enclosure cohesive with the African rotunda. For hippopotamuses, it’s because more and more zoos are giving up on them and. Sure, Schönbrunns’s enclosure is underwhelming and if the zoo ever got rid of the hippopotami, it would be difficult to object such decision. But the trend against hippopotami makes me appreciate that Schönbrunn still has this species much more. Not to mention, these two pachyderms make up for the fact that the zoo does not have a African rhinoceros (which is not a personal problem for me since GOH rhinoceroses are my favorite species of rhinoceros.)

 

[Kalaw]

When I haven't visited either of the zoo's in question, my thought process is simple - which zoo would I rather visit purely to see the category in question? And that is where Schönbrunn wins this easily. The rotunda paddocks and the Bird House are beautiful and are both among the European zoo exhibits I most desire to see in person (both have roughly half of their offerings being African). I also really like the graceful modern appearance of the Giraffe House - a prime example of how historic zoos can add newer buildings that don't disrupt the scenery of the older ones - and the Primate House (mainly, if not entirely African?), which has the art gallery-like aesthetic of the great historic zoo buildings without letting animal welfare fall behind standards. A hippo enclosure that has both underwater viewing and decent grass coverage on land is always a plus, too - so few places tick both boxes - although I see others who have visited Vienna seem quite critical of this enclosure.

 

[amur leopard]

Not really convinced by Vienna's offerings in this category - there are aspects which I thought were good - East Africa, Bird, Monkey houses, but many of the exhibits for the larger animals fell short of modern husbandry standards for me. There are bits of Vienna which are very pleasant to walk through, but upon further reflection, I very much doubt I'd like to be a hippo, antelope or even elephant at Schoenbrunn. Barren quarter acre paddocks are great for the visitor but, if one were to strip away the historical setting, they wouldn't look terribly out of place somewhere like Ueno.

From what I've read here Artis has little to trouble Vienna, but if Vienna wound up with almost any other zoo in their group with this category (save maybe Chester given current renovations) it'd have a very hard time indeed, especially Zurich and Paris.

 

[lintworm]

From what I've read here Artis has little to trouble Vienna, but if Vienna wound up with almost any other zoo in their group with this category (save maybe Chester given current renovations) it'd have a very hard time indeed, especially Zurich and Paris.

Artis does have a few very good African exhibits. The new scimitar-horned oryx (with meerkat) and lion exhibits are really pleasant with loads of attention to the plants. The lion enclosure is very varied and well-structured too. There are some pictures of both enclosures, but none show the full extent (and the lion enclosure is designed it can never be seen fully from any viewpoint).

Scimitar-horned oryx

Lower part of lion enclosure

Desert section of the bird house, once a generic desert theme, now home to African natives including hoopoes and lesser kestrel.

Pictures by @polarbear & @honeybadger

If it weren't for their ape enclosures Artis could have gotten my vote, but while they are slated for a renovation, they currently are quite poor.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Just bumping this in the hope that it might get a few more people voting and discussing; the fact that the other vote is prompting a lot of discussion - although precisely what I have hoped for - has produced a bit of a feedback loop wherein it is constantly gaining people's attention and hence encouraging more people to vote, whilst this one sinks below the waves!

So far 29 people have voted there, to only 19 here.

 

[Fallax]

I'm not too familiar with either collection and this seems a bit of a close match. I've voted slightly in favour of Artis but I could be swayed.

 

[NSU42]

I'm not too familiar with either collection and this seems a bit of a close match. I've voted slightly in favour of Artis but I could be swayed.

Part of the problem here with the lack of discussion is the lack of representation for Artis. Everyone up until your vote has voted for and argued that Vienna is the better collection and Artis has nothing that outstrips Vienna in terms exhibitry to the extent it should win (as is happening in the other thread with London vs. Berlin).

You are the only one that has voted for Artis, so what would be your argument for doing so? Why do you give Artis the slight edge? Have you visited both collections that leads you to believe Artis is superior here? However, so slightly it may be.

 

[Kalaw]

Just bumping this in the hope that it might get a few more people voting and discussing - the fact that the other vote is prompting a lot of discussion (although precisely what I have hoped for) has produced a bit of a feedback loop wherein it is constantly gaining people's attention and hence encouraging more people to vote, whilst this one sinks below the waves!

I'll try to help out as someone who hasn't visited either collection, with a question for anyone who has visited Vienna; why is the hippo enclosure getting so much criticism?

Judging of images, it seems to be one of the very few hippo enclosures to provide decent grass coverage for grazing, a sufficiently deep pool, and underwater viewing, both indoors and outdoors, as an added bonus for visitors. From my experience, it is very rare to find a zoo that checks all of those boxes. It also has shade, space, and a beautiful building attached. Only slight possible issue I could find is the small amount of land space indoors?

When I was looking through photos, it struck me as one of the better hippo enclosures that I had seen in general, never mind in a city zoo of Schönbrunn's size, yet in this thread multiple members have criticised it. Is it just a matter of photos making it look bigger than it really is, or is there a deeper fault that I'm not seeing?

 

[StoppableSan]

I'll try to help out as someone who hasn't visited either collection, with a question for anyone who has visited Vienna; why is the hippo enclosure getting so much criticism?

Judging of images, it seems to be one of the very few hippo enclosures to provide decent grass coverage for grazing, a sufficiently deep pool, and underwater viewing, both indoors and outdoors, as an added bonus for visitors. From my experience, it is very rare to find a zoo that checks all of those boxes. It also has shade, space, and a beautiful building attached. Only slight possible issue I could find is the small amount of land space indoors?

When I was looking through photos, it struck me as one of the better hippo enclosures that I had seen in general, never mind in a city zoo of Schönbrunn's size, yet in this thread multiple members have criticised it. Is it just a matter of photos making it look bigger than it really is, or is there a deeper fault that I'm not seeing?

It's a lot bigger than meets the eye. I think the indoor space could be updated significantly to offer more space, but the outdoor exhibit is really, really nice. Of the four hippo exhibits I saw on my Europe trip last year (Sofia, Vienna, Prague and Budapest), Vienna's easily the nicest in terms of the outdoor enclosure.

 

[amur leopard]

I'll try to help out as someone who hasn't visited either collection, with a question for anyone who has visited Vienna; why is the hippo enclosure getting so much criticism?

Judging of images, it seems to be one of the very few hippo enclosures to provide decent grass coverage for grazing, a sufficiently deep pool, and underwater viewing, both indoors and outdoors, as an added bonus for visitors. From my experience, it is very rare to find a zoo that checks all of those boxes. It also has shade, space, and a beautiful building attached. Only slight possible issue I could find is the small amount of land space indoors?

Must have recalled wrongly - looking at pictures it does look great. Only thing I can think of is that maybe I saw it pre-renovation? Thanks a lot for questioning though, it was worth a revisit for sure; maybe I’ve been a little harsh in my assessment.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I'll try to help out as someone who hasn't visited either collection, with a question for anyone who has visited Vienna; why is the hippo enclosure getting so much criticism?

As @StoppableSan has established, it really doesn't merit the criticism levelled at it!

Of course, if anyone has a contrary opinion now is the time to voice it; we are into the final 24 hours of this match! As far as I can tell, seven fewer people have voted in this one than in the other match - anyone else up for voting and/or posting their own thoughts?

 

[remar]

s it just a matter of photos making it look bigger than it really is, or is there a deeper fault that I'm not seeing?

The outdoor area was rebuild back in 2019. Since then, i would rate the outdoor exhibit good to very good, especially for a city zoo like Vienna. However the hippo house wasn't part of the renovation. And it is iMo indeed clearly (too) small for hippos, especially compared to the outdoor paddock. And sadly it doesn't seem that something will change soon.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Although not all that close, with the result more or less expected from the first day, this was nonetheless a pretty good start to the campaign for Vienna.... with plenty of time for redemption ahead of Artis, too!

As I've mentioned elsewhere, even when the result seems inevitable it is still very much worth voting - as the subtle differences resulting from a collection getting a slightly different proportion of votes one way or another could make a *big* difference when it comes to progression!

Artis - 56/145 points - 38.620%
Vienna - 89/145 points - 61.379%