European (Tea)Cup - League A - Chester vs Zurich

[TeaLovingDave]

Two titans of the European zoological scene face off against one another; Chester has already participated in a match during the Cup, but this is the first call to arms for Zurich - and both collections have much to prove!

Unlike some of the previous matches which saw a relatively small level of voting and discussion due to a combination of voter apathy, lack of widespread knowledge about the respective competitors, and heavily-imbalanced categories, I think this one has the strong potential to spark several pages of discussion and debate - the category is ECTOTHERMS, and you all have three days to vote!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

This one should be pretty interesting - I imagine that a lot of people will be swayed by the fact that Masoala contains a small number of free-roaming ectotherm taxa, and hence view Zurich as being an obvious contender for this category given the high esteem in which many Zoochatters hold the house in question.

However, I would tend to argue that other than Masoala - disregarding for now the question of how much weight we should place on the house considering the fact that the ectotherm aspect is a fairly minor portion of the whole - the remaining category-relevant aspects of Zurich range from poor to merely good, with a fairly inconsistent standard of quality.

Conversely, Chester does not contain any single exhibit which *quite* reaches the same heights as Masoala, but:

• It contains a significantly larger and more diverse collection of ectotherm taxa.
• The general standard of the ectotherm exhibits at Chester is consistently high.
• There are several houses which are worthy of particular acclaim in this regard, including both Tropical Realm and Monsoon Forest, Dragons In Danger, and the Butterfly House.
• Chester has an extremely solid background of both in-situ and ex-situ conservation work and captive breeding achievements relating to the category.

As such, my gut instinct is to give Chester the advantage with a 3:2 vote, allowing Zurich two points for the quality of Masoala and the small smattering of other relevant details - although I may shift further along the scale to 4:1 depending on how the discussion progresses.

 

[twilighter]

I need to go little bit deeper in this one, before placing a vote. Chester is undoubtedly very strong here, but in addition to Masoala, Zurich has the Exotarium, complex dedicated almost entirely to this category , and shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Zurich has the Exotarium, complex dedicated almost entirely to this category

A complex which, last I heard, is still largely closed for redevelopment in which case only those sections which still exist are eligible for consideration.

 

[twilighter]

A complex which, last I heard, is still largely closed for redevelopment in which case only those sections which still exist are eligible for consideration.

I could be wrong, but I think that renovation finished and they just opened entire new Research station for rare Amphibians and Insects on the last floor.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I could be wrong, but I think that renovation finished and they just opened entire new Research station for rare Amphibians and Insects on the last floor.

Hopefully someone or other can provide information about what the new exhibit area is like, then either way, that probably strengthens my decision to stick to a 3:2 vote rather than a full 4:1 vote, pending further information.

 

[lintworm]

A complex which, last I heard, is still largely closed for redevelopment in which case only those sections which still exist are eligible for consideration.

That building reopened last month and the new part is quite a unique set-up. for now 3-2 to Zurich.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

the new part is quite a unique set-up

Details and/or photographs?

 

[lintworm]

Details and/or photographs?

I will write something once the morning inferno is over

 

[Kalaw]

This is a very difficult one for me. Despite having visited both zoos (Chester in 2021, Zürich in 2023), I don't know much about their respective offerings here. At Chester, both Tropical Realm and Monsoon Forest, where I gather the bulk of their collection in this category is kept, were closed due to avian infleunza on my visit, and the largest ectothermic zone that I did see for myself, the Aquarium, is now destined to shut its doors (not sure if it actually has yet, but even still I would argue that the building's infrastructural issues that forced this closure should be considered). At Zürich, I saw everything, but the aquarium portion of the Exotarium is currently closed and the reptile and amphibian portion (which I adored) has been altered quite considerably.

So therefore, I would like to say that I am very open to persuasion in favour of Chester if someone provides an overview of the two tropical houses that I missed, but as it stands I am voting 3-2 to Zürich for the following reasons:

• The free-ranging geckos and chameleons in Masoala.
• Being the first, and until recently, only, zoo in Europe to breed Galápagos Giant Tortoise, with some subspecies-pure individuals present.
• The many rarities, particularly in terms of dendrobates, in the Exotarium (presumably only the display has changed and the collecton is still mostly unaltered since my visit).
• The delightful native-species aquaria near the otters.
• It is the only zoo in which I have regularly seen wild lizards throughout the day, with several scurrying across my path particularly around the elephant house.

Beyond that, Zürich has several more ectotherm displays throughout the zoo, all of a fairly high standard with no enclosures that I would deem unacceptable. I particularly like how most of them are integrated into the enclosures for other species, such as those in the elephant house, or around the savannah area. That said, similar remarks could be made about Chester.

It cannot be more than a 3-2 either way, in my opinion, as both zoos are so strong here, but I do believe that Zürich just about comes out on top, and therefore that is where my vote lands.

 

[lintworm]

Details and/or photographs?

The main corridor on the first floor of the Exotarium has been changed significantly. The free-flight area still exists, with Chinese stripe-necked turtles as only ectotherms, as does the original terrarium room with its ±20 terraria. The corridor in between is somewhat unrecognizable now, with on one side callitrichid enclosures, with the highlight on the other side.

In total 6 "research cubicles" were created:

picture by Zoo Zurich.

Each cubicle has it's own theme and research question with their (often unique and endangered) inhabitants. The zoo works together with multiple universities and the research done ranges from behavioural to getting settings right for breeding. Each cubicle has it's own research station for visitors too. The cubicles are inhabited by:

1. Breeding biology & climatic conditions of Indian Ocean ectotherms with:
- Mantella expectata
- Phelsuma inexpectata (Reunion day gecko)
- Paroedura lohatsara (Madagascar beautyhead, a stunning gecko)

2. Brood care of poison dart frogs
- Phyllobates terribilis
- Phyllobates bicolor
- Oophaga anchicaensis (only European holding)
- Oophaga histrionica

3. How to save the demonic poison frog
- Minyobates steyermarki
- Atelopos balios

4. How do leaf cutter ants adapt to their environment
- Atta cephalotes

5. Understanding the biology of Achrioptera manga, a stunningly beautiful and rare Malagasy stick insect
- Achrioptera manga
- Sechelleptus spec. (a millipede from the Indian Ocean islands)

6. How to save Malagasy freshwater fish
Housing 6 different endangered Malagasy fish species.

Oophaga lehmanni will be added soon.

Take that with the excellent reptile & amphibian room:

and the small, but well-designed aquarium in the same building:

all pictures by @Philipine eagle

And one has an excellent building. Add to that Masoala with its day geckoes, panther chameleons, girdled lizards, Uroplatus gecko, hinge-back tortoise, Malagasy cichlids and the Aldabran giant tortoised and there is a very high bar to clear already.

And there are some more exhibits throughout the zoo:

@Philipine eagle A large terrarium for pancake tortoise & plated lizards in Lewa.

@Bengal Tiger Black-breasted leaf turtle and some invertebrates in the elephant house

@antonmuster

@Kalaw An evolution-themed house with what long were the only breeding Galapagos giant tortoises in Europe with a side terrarium whose current inhabitants I do not know.

The former Australia house now has some endangered reptiles from all over the world, including Exiuma Island iguana and Savu python. There are no pictures of the current looks, but this is one of the 2 former perentie exhibits that now houses the iguana:

@lintworm

I am aware Chester has a larger collection, but in terms of exhibitry, I don't think it can hold up. Zurich is also well able to match Chester both in situ and ex situ conservation. Chester is in luck their aquarium is still open and that the invertebrate exposition in Zurich will open only in 2 months time. That exposition will be mostly a barrierless affair and the designs that have been shared so far look like it will be quite different from the usual invertebrate house.

It is a close game for sure, but I feel confident with a 3-2 for Zurich

 

[Fallax]

This is a tough one, I've visited both zoos, with Chester being my home zoo. I visited Zurich in 2019 but it seems a good amount has changed since then. I'll stick to 3-2 for Chester for now but I definitely could be swayed.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

OK, those Zurich exhibits look just amazing. I do like Chester's diversity, but I'd argue most of their exhibits are just... well, standard exhibits.

Still, I will say that Chester definitely sells the theming as to where the exhibits are placed. In the Islands section, there's a little indoor area that looks vaguely like a base camp research area, with appropriately themed South-East Asian invertebrates.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The free-ranging geckos and chameleons in Masoala.

Although the building is to nowhere near the same scale, it should be noted that the Monsoon Forest house at Chester has several free-roaming species of reptile, and that the Butterfly House has a large population of free-roaming Trinidad Stream Frog.

Being the first, and until recently, only, zoo in Europe to breed Galápagos Giant Tortoise, with some subspecies-pure individuals present.

I see your argument for Galapagos Giant Tortoise and note that citing the presence of pure individuals as a particular positive sounds good until you reflect that these comprise a single male of one taxon and a single female of another, and that the animals produced by these successful breedings are therefore *not* pure individuals.

Moreover, I raise your "first zoo to breed Galapagos Giant Tortoise in Europe" argument with a corresponding "first and only zoo to breed Tuatara outside New Zealand full stop" argument

The many rarities, particularly in terms of dendrobates, in the Exotarium (presumably only the display has changed and the collecton is still mostly unaltered since my visit).

Chester has more than its fair share of rarities when it comes to ectotherms, both in terms of onshow taxa and species kept offshow for reintroduction breeding programmes - the latter include Montseny Brook Salamander (Chester being the only place outside Spain to keep or breed this extremely rare European native species) and Bermuda Skink. When I marshall my thoughts for a full breakdown of the merits of Chester in this category I will return to this point!

The delightful native-species aquaria near the otters.

I don't recall seeing any exhibits of this nature - do you have any photographs?

It is the only zoo in which I have regularly seen wild lizards throughout the day, with several scurrying across my path particularly around the elephant house.

In all honesty, I think that has approximately as much bearing on the matter as (for instance) trying to claim that Walsrode would have a shot in this category because of the massive population of frogs and newts I have observed within the grounds of the zoo

but the aquarium portion of the Exotarium is currently closed

If this is true, then the aquarium exhibits highlighted by lintworm would be exempt from consideration - although I hadn't heard this was the case, I had also missed the news that the "Research Station" had opened, so would appreciate further clarification on this point.

---

As regards the run-down provided by @lintworm of the new display which recently opened up within the Exotarium, it *does* sound pretty good - although I'll note that it sounds like he is citing the promotional material rather than personal experience (for instance, using photographs from the zoo website) and that the "unique set-up" seems to be a slightly-more regimented form of the Tripa Research Station area within Monsoon Forest at Chester, which displays various invertebrates, fish and herps in an imitation research setting complete with hand-written notes and journals.... so not really unique!

---

I'd be interested to hear the arguments from @OkapiJohn and @Haasje regarding why they view Chester as being worthy of only a single point; I will be providing a detailed breakdown of the merits of the collection later tonight when I have a bit more time and mental energy to marshall my thoughts, but even on a surface level I think that giving Zurich 4 points is excessively gilding the lily and being highly-unfair to Chester!

----

. I do like Chester's diversity, but I'd argue most of their exhibits are just... well, standard exhibits.

I'd assert that none of the exhibits scattered around Zurich outside the Exotarium which @lintworm highlighted exceed the quality demonstrated by Chester in this category - and that several fail to reach it.

For instance, you can't exactly call the tortoise exhibits in Lewa and the Elephant House - cited by him as particular highlights of the non-Exotarium offerings - anything particularly remarkable!

But again, I'll be putting my money where my mouth is anon.

 

[lintworm]

As regards the run-down provided by @lintworm of the new display which recently opened up within the Exotarium, it *does* sound pretty good - although I'll note that it sounds like he is citing the promotional material rather than personal experience (for instance, using photographs from the zoo website) and that the "unique set-up" seems to be a slightly-more regimented form of the Tripa Research Station area within Monsoon Forest at Chester, which displays various invertebrates, fish and herps in an imitation research setting complete with hand-written notes and journals.... so not really unique!

With the difference that the display in Zurich is *not* an imitation research setting like all those other displays, but a real one. That is a big difference.

I haven't visited myself indeed, so all I can go from is the presentation of the zoo itself and media found elsewhere online.

If this is true, then the aquarium exhibits highlighted by lintworm would be exempt from consideration - although I hadn't heard this was the case, I had also missed the news that the "Research Station" had opened, so would appreciate further clarification on this point.

The aquarium should be fully open.

 

[oflory]

I have only been to Chester, but both zoos seem really well-matched here. I'll lean towards Chester for this because of the diversity of their herp collection.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

My methodical breakdown of what Chester has to offer will have to be broken down into multiple parts, covering all of the major exhibits and houses, and more intangible aspects such as breeding and reintroduction programmes, conservation and research work, and so forth:

Tropical Realm

Although the older of the two tropical houses at Chester, this house still contains a *lot* of noteworthy exhibits relevant to this category - along with a wide variety of unusual and interesting taxa. Particular highlights include:

• A pair of large mixed terraria for poison dart frogs, anoles, amazon tree boa and (I think) Hercules Beetle:

• A series of smaller terraria along the wall containing a variety of amphibians and invertebrates, including this large tank for Golden Mantella and Whitebellied Reed Frog:

• A pod containing three further tanks for amphibians - they change the precise taxa on-display from time to time, but generally one of the tanks always contains Rio Cauca Caecilian, and I believe one of the others currently contains Mexican Leaf Frog and a species of water snail - further clarification on the taxa displayed here would be useful!

• The new tuatara exhibit, which was converted from an old Galapagos Tortoise exhibit; slightly smaller than the old one, but still extremely good and providing them with plenty of substrate for digging; the second image, although not great quality, is a Google Streetview shot of the exhibit when it held the tortoises and shows the overall scale of the exhibit better than my own photograph does:

• The old tuatara exhibit, which now contains several species of Malagasy endemic reptiles - this, incidentally, is the exhibit in which the species in question bred for the first time outside New Zealand. Although I preferred the old inhabitants, it is still an extremely good exhibit for the species held within:

• A large and recently-refurbished exhibit for Radiated Tortoise and Oustalet's Chameleon; this contains an open paddock-style exhibit and a heated indoor area:

• One of the larger exhibits within Tropical Realm is this large enclosure and pool for a pair of Spectacled Caiman:

 

[amur leopard]

With the difference that the display in Zurich is *not* an imitation research setting like all those other displays, but a real one. That is a big difference.

In fairness, I don't think this is a completely unique idea either - London's had windows into their behind the scenes research areas (in three different buildings) for years, but even beyond I've seen real, in use research areas as displays at a bunch of places - Paignton, Loro Parque (which I think might actually be the best use of it that I've seen in the jellyfish building) and oddly COEX aquarium in Korea. I'm sure the new Exotarium is excellent but it isn't exactly a novel concept.

That said I've provisionally voted 3-2 in Zurich's favour, but definitely open to change.

 

[lintworm]

In fairness, I don't think this is a completely unique idea either - London's had windows into their behind the scenes research areas (in three different buildings) for years, but even beyond I've seen real, in use research areas as displays at a bunch of places - Paignton, Loro Parque (which I think might actually be the best use of it that I've seen in the jellyfish building) and oddly COEX aquarium in Korea. I'm sure the new Exotarium is excellent but it isn't exactly a novel concept.

That said I've provisionally voted 3-2 in Zurich's favour, but definitely open to change.

I was referring to the research area @TeaLovingDave mentioned of which there are countless other examples. Other zoos indeed also offer some view into real research facilities. But it seems Zurich goes one step further by bringing the research into the public area with it's interactive design. That is something I haven't seen elsewhere (haven't been to Loro Parque, so no clue how that looks there).

 

[Kalaw]

Forgive me for spreading misinformation about Zürich’s aquarium being closed - I misinterpreted twilighter’s comments about the research centre on the upper floor having reopened as implying that the aquarium on the lower floor had not, my apologies. In that case, I will add to my argument upthread that the Zürich aquarium is excellent, with two of the best coral reef tanks that I have seen in a European zoo and a pair of very large paludariums, as well as a few other, attractively landscaped tanks.

Although the building is to nowhere near the same scale, it should be noted that the Monsoon Forest house at Chester has several free-roaming species of reptile, and that the Butterfly House has a large population of free-roaming Trinidad Stream Frog.



I see your argument for Galapagos Giant Tortoise and note that citing the presence of pure individuals as a particular positive sounds good until you reflect that these comprise a single male of one taxon and a single female of another, and that the animals produced by these successful breedings are therefore *not* pure individuals.

Moreover, I raise your "first zoo to breed Galapagos Giant Tortoise in Europe" argument with a corresponding "first and only zoo to breed Tuatara outside New Zealand full stop" argument



Chester has more than its fair share of rarities when it comes to ectotherms, both in terms of onshow taxa and species kept offshow for reintroduction breeding programmes - the latter include Montseny Brook Salamander (Chester being the only place outside Spain to keep or breed this extremely rare European native species) and Bermuda Skink. When I marshall my thoughts for a full breakdown of the merits of Chester in this category I will return to this point!



I don't recall seeing any exhibits of this nature - do you have any photographs?



In all honesty, I think that has approximately as much bearing on the matter as (for instance) trying to claim that Walsrode would have a shot in this category because of the massive population of frogs and newts I have observed within the grounds of the zoo



If this is true, then the aquarium exhibits highlighted by lintworm would be exempt from consideration - although I hadn't heard this was the case, I had also missed the news that the "Research Station" had opened, so would appreciate further clarification on this point.

---

As regards the run-down provided by @lintworm of the new display which recently opened up within the Exotarium, it *does* sound pretty good - although I'll note that it sounds like he is citing the promotional material rather than personal experience (for instance, using photographs from the zoo website) and that the "unique set-up" seems to be a slightly-more regimented form of the Tripa Research Station area within Monsoon Forest at Chester, which displays various invertebrates, fish and herps in an imitation research setting complete with hand-written notes and journals.... so not really unique!

---

I'd be interested to hear the arguments from @OkapiJohn and @Haasje regarding why they view Chester as being worthy of only a single point; I will be providing a detailed breakdown of the merits of the collection later tonight when I have a bit more time and mental energy to marshall my thoughts, but even on a surface level I think that giving Zurich 4 points is excessively gilding the lily and being highly-unfair to Chester!

----



I'd assert that none of the exhibits scattered around Zurich outside the Exotarium which @lintworm highlighted exceed the quality demonstrated by Chester in this category - and that several fail to reach it.

For instance, you can't exactly call the tortoise exhibits in Lewa and the Elephant House - cited by him as particular highlights of the non-Exotarium offerings - anything particularly remarkable!

But again, I'll be putting my money where my mouth is anon.

While the breeding work that Chester is doing with Bermuda Skinks and Montsenny Brook Salamanders is very impressive, especially if eventual reintroduction is the long-term goal, I think it is hard to praise their rarity status in captive collections when they are offshow, personally. Correct me if taking wildlife into account goes against the rules of the cup in some way, but I feel as though it is fair enough so long as the animals in question are category-relevant, given that they can greatly enrich the zoo-going experience and often are rather difficult to find elsewhere.

The native-species aquarium is nothing remarkable, a single tank housing European Eel, European Perch, and I believe third species that I cannot remember at the moment. I don't have any photos, sadly, nor are there any in the gallery, but it is fairly large for a coldwater display and very nicely landscaped to offer ample retreats for the eels. It isn't the most impressive display, but with its relatively unique focus and the charm of the whole otter area made it one of the more pleasant hidden gems at Zürich for me, and definitely counters your argument that nothing at Zürich outside of Masoala or the Exotarium is Chester-level, in my opinion.