European (Tea)Cup - League A - Vienna vs Paris Zoo & Menagerie

[TeaLovingDave]

This time round, we will be dealing with a very interesting match indeed, wherein the oldest and second-oldest zoo in the world (plus the younger "brother" of the latter collection) will face off against one another. Both have had a fairly successful Cup thus far, with progression highly likely for one and nigh-certain for the other, but this time round one *will* have to taste defeat.

The category is a nice broad one - PRIMATES - so there will hopefully be much to discuss!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I reckon this is a fairly unlucky draw for Vienna, category-wise; although I am open to discussion and debate swaying my opinions somewhat, my immediate gut instinct is that this is a pretty obvious 4:1 vote for the Paris pair given the quality of the lemur collection at Paris Zoo, with the main reasons why Vienna picks up a point being a) the quality of the small number of exhibits which do exist there and b) the generally-poor quality of the category exhibits at Paris Menagerie.

I think this is definitely one where I could be convinced to shift down to 3:2 Paris however - I look forward to seeing what everyone else thinks!

 

[amur leopard]

I think the Menagerie's contributions in this category are actively unhelpful towards the ensemble in this case, but Vincennes' offerings are such that this still isn't particularly close? Besides the old primate house, which is undeniably lovely, Vienna has little to offer in this category. I guess also the lemur and gibbon islands up by the bird house?

Vincennes has pretty much an entire Madagascar area devoted almost uniquely to lemurs, with eight different species, including Crowned sifaka, Greater bamboo lemur and Mongoose lemur, all in lovely exhibits with fantastic climbing opportunities and in many cases having live trees too. Adding to that an equally strong South American zone with Woolly monkey and Bearded saki, plus a substantial exhibit for Western baboons and its an exceedingly good lineup. I'd posit Vincennes actually probably is one of the best non-specialist zoos for primates on the continent with regards to exhibit quality.

 

[lintworm]

Vienna is everything that the Jardin des Plantes is not. It has a wonderfully restored historic primate house, with inhabitants that are the right size. Additionally it has a very good barbary macaque display (mix with barbary sheep), simple but effective islands for white-handed gibbon as well as ruffed lemurs & ring-tailed lemurs and the Orangerie which is a modern orangutan enclosure which lacks possibilities for fission-fusion holding. The Jardin des Plantes basically only has an outdated primate house (not to dissimilar as to what the primate house in Vienna looked 15 years ago!), with cages that are equal parts unatractive and smallish (though well furnished). It adds some callitrichids in low cages in the former pheasantry. Were this Vienna - Jardin des Plantes, it would easily be 4-1 Vienna.

Vienna vs Vincennes is a much closer match. Vincennes might have more species and more rarities. But many enclosures aren't that great either. Sizewise none strike me a large and especially the all-indoor cages in the rainforest hall for some of lemurs and S-American primates don't do it for me. I also didn't find the baboon enclosure very attractive with the old-fashioned mock rock (which fits the mountain though). While Vincennes - Vienna would still be 3-2 for Vincennes, taking into account the Jardin des Plantes, I would give Vienna the edge based on exhibit quality.

 

[Philipine eagle]

The quality of the exhibits in Vienna is way above average, with the Barbary macaque enclosure being the best and probably the King cobus the least good. The historic primate house is a beautifully restored landmark while the Orangerie is certainly from inside very impressive with it's tall window.


Bornean Orangutan inside the Orangerie


King Colobus outdoor

My main objection to Vienna is that the collection consists almost exclusively of very common species (the colobus excepted).

I haven't seen the new Vincennes, so I'm waiting for others to give their thoughts.

 

[amur leopard]

For the record, here's what Vincennes has to offer:

Red-bellied lemur:

(@twilighter)

Crowned lemur + Ring tailed lemur:

Black and white ruffed lemur + Mongoose lemur:

(@SivatheriumGuy)

Crowned sifaka + Red bellied lemur:

(@SivatheriumGuy)

(@twilighter)

Black lemur (and Straw coloured fruit bat)

(@SivatheriumGuy)

Greater bamboo lemur (?)

Brown capuchin

(@twilighter)

Woolly monkey

(@twilighter)

(@SivatheriumGuy)

Guinea baboon:

(@SivatheriumGuy)

White faced saki, Coppery titi and Pied tamarin:

(@SivatheriumGuy)

Guianan bearded saki (+Six-banded armadillo)

(@SivatheriumGuy)

For me, it's not particularly close. Granted, the Menagerie does bring it down a notch but primates really isn't a strong suit for Vienna.

 

[remar]

For me, it's not particularly close. Granted, the Menagerie does bring it down a notch but primates really isn't a strong suit for Vienna.

After reading that, my thoughts were that Vienna holds up pretty well, although they didn't stand out at any of their categories yet (and i doubt, that this will change). Being an allrounder like Vienna certainly helps.

Personally i'm still somehow unsure. Do i remember it correctly, that Paris is the main reason for crowned sifakas being around at Europe? And does anybody now if they still breed regularly?

 

[lintworm]

After reading that, my thoughts were that Vienna holds up pretty well, although they didn't stand out at any of their categories yet (and i doubt, that this will change). Being an allrounder like Vienna certainly helps.

Personally i'm still somehow unsure. Do i remember it correctly, that Paris is the main reason for crowned sifakas being around at Europe? And does anybody now if they still breed regularly?

The crowned sifaka haven't bred since the new zoo opened, neither have the greater bamboo lemurs, despite both species being initially present in Europe because Paris obtained them (and bred them in the past).

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The crowned sifaka haven't bred since the new zoo opened, neither have the greater bamboo lemurs, despite both species being initially present in Europe because Paris obtained them (and bred them in the past).

Indeed - the fact that Paris has somewhat let things slip when it comes to breeding the Greater Bamboo Lemur and that as a result the species would likely have been lost from Europe were it not for Cologne and Cotswold Wildlife Park is a subject which has cropped up elsewhere in the Cup already!

Nonetheless, the exhibits for the species in question are pretty good - so Paris cannot really be faulted in that regard

 

[remar]

Nonetheless, the exhibits for the species in question are pretty good - so Paris cannot really be faulted in that regard

Indeed. But having a species, where one zoo is the main reason for keeping the whole zoo population alive this is imo a big plus for the zoo in question. (Which isn't the case here anymore)

 

[Dassie rat]

Vienna has 6 primate types not found in Paris
Paris has 22 primate types not found in Vienna and gets 30 points for primate types found in up to 10 European collections

This gives a 52-6 win for Paris, I'm going to equate this as a 5-0 win

 

[Philipine eagle]

Brilliant Barbary macaque and Barbary sheep enclosure at Vienna

I lean toward a 3:2 in favor of Paris, since the species list is the most important criterion for me. But had Vienna had even a few more special species, my vote would have gone in that direction: exhibitry seems to me to be a little better there and they have not only beautifully restored their historic monkey house but also put it to excellent use.

 

[lintworm]

Here is the overview of what Vienna has on offer, it keeps 11 species (compared to 27 in the Parisian zoos combined).

The bulk is held in the historical primate house, which is one of those beatifully restored buildings the Tiergarten is famous for:

@honeybadger

There are 4 enclosures, the former orangutan exhibit now holds a breeding group of king colobus (& meerkats...):

The other side of the building houses several S-American primates:

@lintworm

@honeybadger

@Philipine eagle

@JamesB - white faced saki outdoor cage.

In total there are 3 enclosures with a total of 5 species.

Then there is a mock rock heavy but well-designed and large barbary sheep & barbary macaque enclosure:

@Philipine eagle

@Philipine eagle

The orangutan were moved to the former Orangerie, now called Orang.erie. It is another beautiful example on how to keep animals in a historical building while preserving the architecture. Unfortunately there is only 1 indoor and only 1 outdoor enclosure, which might be fine for the pair they keep, but is not the optimal set-up:

@Philipine eagle

@honeybadger

Red-ruffed lemurs + ring-tailed lemur and white-handed gibbon are kept on a pair of islands. Nothing spectacular, but certainly not bad. Especially the indoor with all the glass is relatively large and airy.

@Maguari

Compared with the bright house in Vienna, the one in Paris looks really gloomy. Fortunately better is on its way for the orangutans. For its age the tall cages aren't that bad for the mangabeys and guenons kept in this building, but it is not really the brightest spot in the Menagerie and the orang utan enclosure as it is now, is just far too small.

@Austin the Sengi

@twilighter

The callitrichids in Paris are kept in well-planted but really low aviaries in a former bird house. It is a lovely setting, but not really optimal, especially for the squirrel monkeys:

@lintworm

Given the quality that Vienna has and the lack thereof at the Jardin des Plantes, I really think a 4-1 score is not warranted.

 

[remar]

which might be fine for the pair they keep,

Actually Vienna is keeping four adult apes. One male and three females (and afaik at least two of them doesn't get along well enough, to be together into the same exhibit.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

An interesting match, and one which was well-argued on both sides:

Vienna - 52/130 points - 40.000%
Paris - 78/130 points - 60.000%

Although there are matches yet to come, I believe this result has solidified the progression from League A incidentally!