European (Tea)Cup - League A - Zurich vs Paris Zoo & Menagerie

Zurich vs Paris Zoo & Menagerie - ASIA

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
TeaLovingDave

TeaLovingDave

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It's been a bit of a rough Cup for Zurich thus far, but there is hope yet - this time round, they face off against the Parisian pair in a category with a lot of scope for discussion and debate: ASIA.

Lets see what you all make of this one :)
 
I'm not at all sure this is a good category for *either* Zurich or Paris, so look forward to seeing how the discussion develops!

For now, I reckon a tentative 3:2 Zurich vote is a good place to start - they definitely do not merit anything better however, given the abysmal quality of the orangutan housing there.
 
Another difficult decision. The Khaen Krachang will eventually prevail here, but Jardine des Plantes has a very serious Asian collection and their Orangutans are in a bit better place.

I am slightly hesitate for the Mongolian Steppe at Zurich, since dosent include wild animals, but still represent Asia beautifully.

I am looking forward to the discussion and will start with 3-2 for Zurich.
 
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Starting off with a 4-1 vote for Zürich.

While the orangutan enclosure is poor, it isn’t much better at Paris, and there are also some very mediocre feline enclosures in the Cat House there. A charming and historic display, but not a very good one for animal welfare. In Switzerland, there are also some delightful relevant displays in the Exotarium, such as the paludarium and the coral reef tanks, the brilliant Mongolian Steppe (a prime example of theming done well, unobtrusive, inoffensive and informative) and the otter enclosure which I am very much fond of, as well as the spacious aviaries near the soon-to-be Panterra, and the very rare Persian Goitered Gazelle living with the camels. And then Zürich of course has perhaps the most complex and intricately designed elephant enclosure in Europe, with an elegant marvel of modern zoo architecture as the indoor area to boot. And yet again, the theming here is perfect.

Over in Paris, whose collection is geographically divided between the two zoos, the entirety of the Asian collection is kept in the Menagerie du Jardins des Plantes. The presence of hair and the fact that the zoo is the studbook holder is commendable, and they are also the holder for Binturongs who can be seen in multiple enclosures throughout the zoo. Not sure if he is still alive, but on my 2018 visit the oldest binturong in captivity could be observed, a real highlight. I love how the Red Panda and Binturong enclosures can actually be observed in the surrounding botanical gardens without entering the zoo itself. There is also a rather impressive ungulate collection including several caprines, and a Malayan Tapir enclosure which I am rather fond of. Overall, Paris does have a lot here that is very commendable, but sadly I don’t think there is anything that can even approach the best of Zürich, and while there is also nothing that can quite approach the worst of Zürich, there is a lot throughout that is only slightly better.

I think 4-1 Zürich is a reflective scoreline at the moment, but it is close to a 3-2, and as it has been many years since my Paris visit I am open to being convinced of that.
 
A 4-1 vote for Zürich wouldn't be fair to Paris in my opinion. Asia is one of the weakest category of Zürich (it won't be anymore in one month with Panthera), and the collection isn't big. The orangutan housing is really bad, regarding both the big apes and the pileated gibbons, the paddocks for the Arabian oryxes and the camels are plain and boring and the Mongolian area only houses yaks and goats. The only great strength of the Swiss zoo in this category is the elephant park.

On the other hand, while the enclosures are for the majority bad, the Ménagerie has a really great collection of Asian animals : anoa, gaur, takin, goral, dusky pademelon, tree kangaroo, Malayan tapir, Visayan warty pig, Kuban tur, North Chinese leopard, ... For a small-sized zoo, the collection is quite impressive.

I'd still give the lead to Zürich, regarding the overall better husbandry quality, but Paris do deserve the 2 points in my opinion.
 
Gil said:
The only great strength of the Swiss zoo in this category is the elephant park.
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That is if you only consider mammals, but for geographical categories all classes are relevant. Therefore, the wonderful paludarium in the Exotarium counts (all except the mudskippers are Asian) as do the two Indo-pacific coral reefs, the larger of which I would argue is, while not as big, and perhaps not as technically advanced, more attractive and exciting than even the one at Burgers'.

full

@antonmuster

That said, in terms of birds and reptiles, Zürich admittedly has very little. The very large and nicely done aviaries near the red pandas (which I forgot to mention in my previous post are actually onshow still despite Panterra construction, and their enclosure is excellent) with Eurasian Spoonbills and Ural Owls, as well as the free-ranging Red Junglefowl in Kaeng Krachan, with Crested Partridge in a separate enclosure within said house. So far as I can tell, only the Reticulated Python are Asian amongst the current Exotarium inhabitants, but there are also Black-breasted Leaf Turtles in Kaeng Krachan and Savu Python in the Ape House.

Which leads me onto a question for anyone who has visited Paris more recently than myself - what do they have on offer in terms of non-mammals? How many of the inhabitants of the Grand Voliere and the two reptile houses are Asian, for instance, or do any of the European Vivarium species at Vincennes have ranges that extend into Asia? I was really fond of all these exhibits, and they could potentially be quite significant.

Another factor in Zürich's favour is the theming, which in Kaeng Krachan is really well-done, as it impacts the visitor areas more so than the animal ones, never compromising welfare for a more impactful sightline. And yet, it does do well to add to the immersion, to educate visitors about other cultures and, in the case of Kaeng Krachan, to discuss Zürich's in situ conservation work. For me, this is the gold standard for how such theming should be done, and I perceive this as a role model for zoos that want to try their hand at it.

All that said, I will admit that the orangutan enclosure is atrocious, and if other voters are of the belief that it is singlehandedly enough to cost Zürich a 4-1, then I will not argue with it. That said, I do not think that it is sufficient reasoning myself, as the overall standard of enclosures at Paris is far lower, and that includes a very subpar orangutan enclosure of their own.
 
For me its a clear 4-1 to Zürich. For both participants is Asia (currently) not their strongest point. But when comparing eachother their can only be one clear victor. The menagerie thus has some interresting species, but alle the housing is really outdated. I love the monumental architecture when it is well mantained, but unfortunally i fond this summer in Paris this not really the case.
On the otherhand we have de very nicely done Mongolian Steps and the architectural masterpiece Elephant house. Which also offers interresting and well maintained habitat for the inhabitants. Also the other Asian exhibits are nicely structured and done. With the exception of the orangutan/gibon enclosures. Although in personally think the ones at Zurich at better that the almost falling a part house in Paris. Where last summer, as far is i could see, they hadnt a possibility to go outside while there enclosures are being renovated.

Also again we must noted the unlucky draw/timing for Zürich. Their (probebly) outstanding Asian Canivor complex is almost about to open with most all animals currently on sitr. But it wont count the next few days in this cup. Where it the case, they would have had a clean sweep.
 
I can't really agree with scoring this 4-1 for Zurich. Yes the elephant complex is exemplary from both an architectural and an animal standpoint, but especially the orangutan enclosure drags Zurich down. It is just beyond me why new ape enclosures are still not a priority in Zurich. Whereas Paris is finally constructing a new orangutan enclosure, in Zurich they will probably remain in that house for at least another 10 years....

Paris Vincennes lacks an Asian zone, but most of the European species present outdoors (otters, wolverine, vultures) qualify for Asia too. Combined with the large, but uninspiringly presented collection in the Jardin des Plantes, that is quite a bit on offer. Apart from the elephants Zurich really doesn't offer much. The Mongolia area is nicely themed, but with only domestics (and a few goitered gazelle) it doesn't inspire me.
 
lintworm said:
Whereas Paris is finally constructing a new orangutan enclosure, in Zurich they will probably remain in that house for at least another 10 years....
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Although a valid criticism of Zürich as a whole, and likewise Paris deserves praise for addressing their issues, it is irrelevant to this match as future plans can't be taken into account in the Cup. As the enclosures currently stand, although Zürich's enclosure is probably worse, I think the Paris one is only very marginally better.
lintworm said:
The Mongolia area is nicely themed, but with only domestics (and a few goitered gazelle) it doesn't inspire me.
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Are there no longer Burmese Brow-antlered Deer living with the camels and gazelles? They are still listed on ZTL.

Hadn't considered the European area at Vincennes, that's a good point. All very nice enclosures, particularly the vulture aviary, which far exceeds anything Zürich has for Asian birds, and of course having the iconic Great Rock as the backdrop for the vultures and otters is another highlight. That has certainly pushed things closer to a 3-2, will have to spend some more time thinking about my vote. :)
 
remar said:
Do marine display count here? Same for the domestic animals? Maybe @TeaLovingDave can give his view on this topic?
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Going by my gut instinct and recollection of the marine display in question, I'm going to say that it doesn't count - but that it *will* count for the Islands category if this proves relevant.

The domestic display of yak and bactrian camel, however, does count.

Kalaw said:
Although a valid criticism of Zürich as a whole, and likewise Paris deserves praise for addressing their issues, it is irrelevant to this match as future plans can't be taken into account in the Cup. As the enclosures currently stand, although Zürich's enclosure is probably worse, I think the Paris one is only very marginally better.
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It's a tricky one I feel - certainly giving Paris any credit for the potential future quality of any improved exhibit is *absolutely* verboten, just as Zurich cannot be given credit for the Panthera exhibit. However, the decision by Zurich to repeatedly *not* bother investing any money or time into improving matters where the ape house is concerned - and to deem the matter of lower priority than a mass overhaul of areas of the zoo which (from what I have gathered in the past) didn't particularly NEED it - is one which is pertinent to the present day.

In other words, Paris can't be *given* credit for the fact they are taking steps to improve matters, but Zurich can absolutely *lose* credit for the fact they have actively and deliberately chosen *not* to take steps to improve matters. It's a fine distinction, but I think it is a valid one.

Which all contributes to my general stance that (although I am currently sticking to my 3:2 vote in favour of Zurich) a 3:2 vote in favour of Paris is closer to the true state of affairs than a 4:1 vote for Zurich would be.
 
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TeaLovingDave said:
Going by my gut instinct and recollection of the marine display in question, I'm going to say that it doesn't count - but that it *will* count for the Islands category if this proves relevant
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Can you elaborate on that? There are coral reefs in many places, not only near islands, so I am trying to understand the reasoning.
 
lintworm said:
Can you elaborate on that? There are coral reefs in many places, not only near islands, so I am trying to understand the reasoning.
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My (admittedly vague) recollection of the marine display in question was that it is Indonesian in general theme and species content - if you or someone else is able to provide a more detailed analysis which refutes this I'll happily allow its inclusion :)
 
TeaLovingDave said:
My (admittedly vague) recollection of the marine display in question was that it is Indonesian in general theme and species content - if you or someone else is able to provide a more detailed analysis which refutes this I'll happily allow its inclusion :)
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So Indonesia doesn't count for Asia because it is all islands? But anyway there are plenty of coral fish that occur from Australia all the way to Africa, so they could count then?
 
TeaLovingDave said:
My (admittedly vague) recollection of the marine display in question was that it is Indonesian in general theme and species content - if you or someone else is able to provide a more detailed analysis which refutes this I'll happily allow its inclusion :)
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Signed species list for the larger of the two tanks in August 2023 was:

Bluespotted Ribbontail Ray (range includes all of southern Asia, from Myanmar to Arabia)
Coral Catshark (range covers into India, Thailand, Myanmar and others)
Epaulette Shark (only New Guinea and Australia)
Humpback Grouper (range extends into Vietnam and southern China)
Leopard Moray (found in Korea)
Lookdown Fish (Atlantic, so definitely not)
Longhorn Cowfish (range extends into Korea)
Long-spine Porcupinefish (found in several Asian countries from Iran to Korea)
Pennant Coralfish (range extends into and other Asian countries)
Red Lionfish (range includes India and several other Asian countries)
Snowflake Moray (found in China, Myanmar and others)

So all except the Lookdown Fish and the Epaulette Shark can be found off the coasts of mainland Asia. I presume this is sufficient enough to render it relevant? Baring in mind, of course, that things may have changed in the year and-a-half since this list was made, and that it only shows signed species (seemed fairly accurate to me at the time).

The explanation about considering the Ape House's future makes a lot of sense, and I think that is a good ruling - certainly Zürich deserves condemnation for their strange priorities. That, along with the exclusion of the coral reef tank and the reminder that the European areas at Vincennes mostly count has persuaded me to, for now, alter my vote to a 3-2 Zürich rather than 4-1. I may yet revert, though.
 
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lintworm said:
So Indonesia doesn't count for Asia because it is all islands? But anyway there are plenty of coral fish that occur from Australia all the way to Africa, so they could count then?
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Kalaw said:
Signed species list for the larger of the two tanks in August 2023 was:

Bluespotted Ribbontail Ray (range includes all of southern Asia, from Myanmar to Arabia)
Coral Catshark (range covers into India, Thailand, Myanmar and others)
Epaulette Shark (only New Guinea and Australia)
Humpback Grouper (range extends into Vietnam and southern China)
Leopard Moray (found in Korea)
Lookdown Fish (Atlantic, so definitely not)
Longhorn Cowfish (range extends into Korea)
Long-spine Porcupinefish (found in several Asian countries from Iran to Korea)
Pennant Coralfish (range extends into and other Asian countries)
Red Lionfish (range includes India and several other Asian countries)
Snowflake Moray (found in China, Myanmar and others)

So all except the Lookdown Fish and the Epaulette Shark can be found off the coasts of mainland Asia. I presume this is sufficient enough to render it relevant? Baring in mind, of course, that things may have changed in the year and-a-half since this list was made, and that it only shows signed species (seemed fairly accurate to me at the time).
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Yeah, good points - the reef exhibits count :)
 
I haven't been to both of the zoos, but if i'm thinking about Asian species in particular. Paris (Menagerie) comes in mind before Zürich. Paris keeps more species, where every holder plays an important role, to keep the European zoo population alive. And it is the only zoo in Europe with Asian houbara. And after a quick look at ZTL Paris seems to have a quite good Asian bird stock compared to Zürich. Therefore i will go with 3:2 for Paris.
 
remar said:
And it is the only zoo in Europe with Asian houbara.
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A very nice species indeed, and I must admit that along with the Little Bustard also held in the collection it was a definite incentive to get there last year :D hence my visiting both Paris collections as a day-trip from Brussels the day before I returned home from a 3-week European interrailing trip!
 
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