European (Tea)Cup - League B - Prague vs Antwerp & Planckendael

[TeaLovingDave]

Another match-up with a lot of potential for discussion and debate; in one corner a zoological collection which is often held up as amongst the very best in Europe, and in the other a pair of zoological collections which - much like the ZSL pair in the first set of matches - comprise one of the world's oldest alongside a larger and significantly-younger sister site falling under the aegis of a single organisation.

This time round, the category which we will be discussing is HOOFSTOCK and all that this implies, with many ways in which one could approach the matter - I look forward to reading what all of you think over the next three days!

 

[twilighter]

What a match this is !
Planckendael has a very strong cards against mighty Prague in this game, with one of the best paddocks for American and African hoofstock and "award winning" Elephant facility, but imho the Antwerp will drag the team down here. Cape Buffalo Aviary and the Beautiful Egypt temple are waw factors, but the Megafauna husbandary is something that Antwerpen needs to work on.

With Mountain Ungulate Clifs, Gorgeous Sitatunga Exhibit, Upgraded African Savanna, Przewalski's Project, Great Asian Elephant facility and dream collection, few zoos in this world can edge Prague in this category. I don’t think the Belgium duo is amoung them. I will vote just 3:2 for Prague for now.

 

[StoppableSan]

I think I may have to sit this one out - I've been to Prague and I've been to Antwerp, but I haven't been to Planckendael. Because of this, I don't have enough to go on when it comes to my opinion.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I think I may have to sit this one out - I've been to Prague and I've been to Antwerp, but I haven't been to Planckendael. Because of this, I don't have enough to go on when it comes to my opinion.

Well, there's plenty of time to change your mind if/when people post more information about how Planckendael fares in this regard!

 

[NSU42]

I think I may have to sit this one out - I've been to Prague and I've been to Antwerp, but I haven't been to Planckendael. Because of this, I don't have enough to go on when it comes to my opinion.

If it makes you feel better, I have only been to one zoo in the entire competition (London) and it only makes up 0.5 of a competitor, but will likely vote in every match (unless I miss one for whatever reason).

This competition isn't necessarily about voting based on your own personal experiences and is instead about listening to the arguments in the thread, evaluating the information, and making an informed decision about which zoo is more deserving of the win in this category.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

Quick question, before I change it, can I just straight up give Prague a 5-0 vote purely because they have Nile Hippos (which are indeed hoofstock) and Antwerp and Planckendael do not? If so, I will change it to 5-0 for that matter, but if that is not a good enough reason, I will just keep my vote at 4-1 Prague.

 

[Kalaw]

Have visited Prague and Antwerp, but not Planckendael, which so far as I can tell is where the bulk of KMDA's strongest areas in this category are to be found.

Below are some species lists, per ZTL, for anyone interested:

KMDA:
Addax (P)
American Bison (P)
Asian Elephant (P + A)
Barbary Sheep (P)
Cape Buffalo (A)
Chacoan Peccary (P)
Eastern Bongo (P + A)
European Bison (P)
Giraffe, generic (A)
Grevy's Zebra (P)
Guanaco (P)
Indian Rhinoceros (P)
Kirk's Dik-dik (A)
Kordofan Giraffe (P)
Mhorr Gazelle (P)
Natal Red Duiker (A)
Northern Warthog (A)
Okapi (A)
Przewalski's Horse (P)
Reeve's Muntjac (P + A)
Rocky Mountain Wapiti (P)
Saharan Dorcas Gazelle (P)
Somali Wild Ass (P)
Southern Vicuña (P)
Sulawesi Babirusa (A)
Tajik Markhor (A)
Visayan Warty Pig (P)

Total: 26 species

Prague:
Addax
American Bison
Asian Elephant
Barbary Sheep
Beisa Oryx
Bharal
Black Sable
Blesbok
Burmese Brow-antlered Deer
Chacoan Peccary
Chinese Goral
Chinese Reeve's Muntjac
Eastern Bongo
Eastern Kiang
European Bison
European Forest Reindeer
European Moose
Grevy's Zebra
Guanaco
Himalayan Tahr
Hippopotamus
Javan Rusa
Kafue Lechwe
Kirk'a Dik-dik
Kulan
Lowland Anoa
Lowland Brazilian Tapir
Malayan Tapir
Mhorr Gazelle
Mishmi Takin
Nile Lechwe
Przewalski's Horse
Red River Hog
Rothschild's Giraffe
West Caucasian Tur
Western Sitatunga

Total: 36 species

Prague has a larger species list, and with more rarities - the Kulan, European Forest Rendeer, Chacoan Peccary, Javan Rusa and Beisa Oryx. The KMDA also have some nice species, like Natal Red Duiker, Babirusa or Mhorr (but Prague also hold the latter), however not quite as impressive.

As I say, I am not too well-versed on what Planckendael has in this category, so I may have to revisit my vote this evening once I have done a more thorough search of the gallery, but I will say this. Prague's exhibitry in this category is consistently world-class, with the gorgeous trio of mountain bovid exhibits, each near vertical drops of rocky ledges reaching over 200 metres above sea level, as well as the sprawling, green African Savannah and the Sitatunga enclosure, one of a rare few habitats for this species that represent their wetland home accurately. The manner in which the ungulate collection is displayed is also incredibly charming, with the gorgeous woodland setting of the zoo's upper half making for some splendid scenery and immersion as you walk through it. Their reintroductions of Przewalski's Horses also deserves much praise, as does how with the new 'Gobi' exhibit, they have managed to theme displays around their conservation in a graceful manner. The zoo's only real blemish here is the lack of grass in the hippo enclosure.

Antwerp also has a lot of very good here: excellent work with Okapis over the years, the Buffalo Savannah (a very effective repurposing of a historic building), and the gorgeous architecture of the historic Egyptian Temple. But then there is a lot of really rather poor as well. The rhino and elephant enclosures are awful, particularly the latter where if two bulls stand in the same 19th Century stall, they cannot even move without crashing into one another.

For now, voting 4-1 to Prague - may change to a 3-2 once I have further looked at Plackendael's offerings beyond the very surface level overview that I have had so far.

Below are some of my own photos to exemplify Prague's excellence here.

(Barbary Sheep cliff from below)

(Barbary Sheep cliff from above)

(Sitatunga enclosure)

(Part of the European Forest Reindeer enclosure)

(Przewalski's Horse new enclosure)

(Addax enclosure)

(African Savannah)

 

[PossumRoach]

Tough stuff, I visited Prague and Antwerp. But I did not visit Planckendael.

Antwerp doesn’t strike me as a hoofstock enthusiast’s paradise but the fact that this zoo could be referred as the okapi headquarters, as the first zoo to keep the species and as the international studbook keeper, does boost the zoo’s ties with hoofstock. Otherwise there aren’t many other aspects that make me say “I would like to revisit Antwerp to see the hoofstock”. While the Cape buffalo aviary is impressive, I do wonder if the buffalo are fine living in a netted aviary.

Planckandael’s hoofstock collection does seem solid, as in not underwhelming. But I don’t see it as overly spectacular either. Again, I hadn’t visited Planckendael so I can’t really say that the enclosures are good or bad.

I was impressed with the diversity of hoosftock Prague had to offer. Sure it is not Tierpark Berlin, nor does it have some of my personal favorites which happen to be rare in zoos (gaur and American mountain goat), but I still got the impression that the zoo is well specialized in hoofstock. The enclosures are fine. I do think that the Dja reserve unfortunately ruined the view of the African savanna, but as long as the animals are fine I guess it’s water under the bridge.

Prague is also the zoo historically known for saving the Mongolian wild horse and still manages the studbook of this species. I am also intrigued by Prague’s work with wild camels.

Overall I am voting Prague 3/2 Antwerp + Plankandael

Total: 36 species

It should be 37, Prague still keeps white-lipped deer according to ztl.

 

[pipaluk]

Having not been to any of these I will wait to view the opinions for a while before voting, but both have strong species lists in this category which Prague narrowly wins. I am probably leaning 3-2 Prague at the moment which I suspect could well be the most popular vote. The Belgian zoos are unlucky to draw Prague in this category which they would have challenged most others in!

 

[oflory]

I last went to Planckendael in c. 2013 and Antwerp in 2015, so probably not much of an authority on either (though I hope to go to Antwerp again this year). I do remember the hoofstock section and the elephant house at Planckendael being particularly good though - and I did see the slender-horned gazelle (though off-limits for this particular match). I haven't personally seen the buffalo aviary at Antwerp but I think it looks marvellous). I've also considered for the purposes of this vote (as others up the thread have done) Antwerp's long history with okapi.

That said, I think Prague wins this category pretty much outright. The savannah is brilliant and more 'diverse' than the usual ones seen in European zoos, the elephant house is fantastic, the cliffs for the mountain ungulates are wonderful, and I also think the general paddocks in the upper portion of the zoo are good examples of their type, even if not especially exciting. I agree the hippos get the short end of the stick, but when compared to the housing for rhinoceroses and elephants at Antwerp, I don't feel their enclosure is as outright bad.

I initially voted 4/1 in favour of Prague, but have adjusted this downwards to slightly favour the Belgian zoos a bit more. It's 3/2 to Prague for me.

 

[lintworm]

Quick question, before I change it, can I just straight up give Prague a 5-0 vote purely because they have Nile Hippos (which are indeed hoofstock) and Antwerp and Planckendael do not? If so, I will change it to 5-0 for that matter, but if that is not a good enough reason, I will just keep my vote at 4-1 Prague.

I think that is an extremely silly and childish way of voting (either 4-1 or 5-0) for any match up. I can't tell you how to vote, but for the sake of the game, it would be nice if people voted in good faith and not based upon a very narrow personal preference.

 

[aardvark250]

Antwerp in this category clearly focus on the aesthetic and history, from the moorish temple to the egyptian temple to the bovine house, but most of the exhibits are quite basic if not below average. As an okapi fan though (one of my favourite ungulate for sure) I must give it credit for being the studbook keeper and having success in both breeding and conservation works.
Planckendael got a really nice elephant exhibit (which is about double the size of prague, from my own very rough measure of it on google maps), and there are also some excellent hoofstock exhibits, like the Prairie paddock and african paddocks. Using very simple measures on google maps they do seems larger than what i expected from the photos. Most of planckendael's paddocks seems to be quite high standard perhaps with the exception of the wisent, which is located in the asian loop and seems a bit on the small side.
Prague of course got its cliffside exhibits which very few zoos in the world can provide, as well as the african savannah which could very much Palnckendael's african exhibit. It's work on Przewalski's horses are the prime example of successful conservation and why zoos are so important which could not be understated. Also as highlighted prague have a higher species count with rarer species.
I was expecting a blowout by prague but this turns out to be closer than i originally thought. With both planckendael and prague zoo having consistent high quality hoofstock exhibits, i think this is down to how much antwerp weigh in and the rarity prague have to offer. While one could argue antwerp is weighing the team down, one can also argue the historic factor antwerp has to offer which isnt present much in prague.With that, i'll actually go out on a limb and vote 3-2 to KMDA.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

I've never been to the KMDA zoos and I'm not terribly familiar with Planckendael. I have been to Prague and their overall fantastic exhibits as well as their Przewalski's Wild Horse conservation work are enough for me to award them the win. I won't go 4-1, though, until I see more arguments for/against KMDA. From what I've read so far, Planckendael seems to pull its weight in this category as well.

EDIT: I was very surprised to see how many votes are in clear favor of KMDA over Prague. I'd very much like to hear some of the rationale for the strong lead it's taken. (not to imply I think the lead is inherently wrong, I just don't know much about Planckendael whereas I know Prague is one of the very best in Europe for hoofstock)

EDIT 2: I apparently cannot read lol

~Thylo

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I think that is an extremely silly and childish way of voting (either 4-1 or 5-0) for any match up. I can't tell you how to vote, but for the sake of the game, it would be nice if people voted in good faith and not based upon a very narrow personal preference.

Agreed; personal bias is permitted in a vote of any level (although it's highly preferable for it to not be the sole metric being employed) but 5-0 votes require a lot more effort and reasoning to be permissible, as the special fringe cases they should always be.

On which note, I am once again asking @ZH5199 to either engage with the game properly by posting reasons for their 5-0 vote (or adjusting it to a more reasonable level), or to cease wasting everyone's time by making them in the first place.

 

[pipaluk]

I've never been to the KMDA zoos and I'm not terribly familiar with Planckendael. I have been to Prague and their overall fantastic exhibits as well as their Przewalski's Wild Horse conservation work are enough for me to award them the win. I won't go 4-1, though, until I see more arguments for/against KMDA. From what I've read so far, Planckendael seems to pull its weight in this category as well.

EDIT: I was very surprised to see how many votes are in clear favor of KMDA over Prague. I'd very much like to hear some of the rationale for the strong lead it's taken. (not to imply I think the lead is inherently wrong, I just don't know much about Planckendael whereas I know Prague is one of the very best in Europe for hoofstock)

~Thylo

Prague is winning easily unless I am misreading something and you have voted for KMDA?

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Prague is winning easily unless I am misreading something and you have voted for KMDA?

LOL I'm not sure how I swapped that around. Thank you, read it all backwards!

~Thylo

 

[lintworm]

While Planckendael has simple, yet excellent, hoofstock enclosures and a good elephant exhibit, I don't think it is a match with Prague and Antwerp is a bit of a drag in this category. Antwerp shouldn't be keeping elephants in that house and the buffalo aviary isn't very spacious for the buffalo either. While I adore the historic architecture of Antwerp, I think many of their enclosures, including the okapi pens, are somewhat small. They do get kudos for their very pleasant bongo enclosure and for having the balls to send the hippos away, despite them having a better enclosure than in Prague...

But except those hippos, this is maybe Prague's strongest taxonomic category. The cliff exhibits are simply spectacular and basically all other hoofstock enclosures are a simple yet excellent bunch with a stellar collection. I always appreciate the woody hilly paddocks of the goral and others in that corner. So for me it is not a close call, so I am comfortable with a 4-1 for Prague.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

I think that is an extremely silly and childish way of voting (either 4-1 or 5-0) for any match up. I can't tell you how to vote, but for the sake of the game, it would be nice if people voted in good faith and not based upon a very narrow personal preference.

Agreed; personal bias is permitted in a vote of any level (although it's highly preferable for it to not be the sole metric being employed) but 5-0 votes require a lot more effort and reasoning to be permissible, as the special fringe cases they should always be.

On which note, I am once again asking @ZH5199 to either engage with the game properly by posting reasons for their 5-0 vote (or adjusting it to a more reasonable level), or to cease wasting everyone's time by making them in the first place.

This is why I chose to be safe and give it a 4-1 vote, I didn't want all the criticism for giving it a straight up 5-0 vote, because I mean, that doesn't feel like a good enough reason for a 5-0 vote, but Nile Hippos always make zoos better for me and Prague I'd say has a better hoofstock collection overall so I have locked in a 4-1 vote for Prague.

 

[Kalaw]

but Nile Hippos always make zoos better for me and Prague I'd say has a better hoofstock collection overall so I have locked in a 4-1 vote for Prague.

Does it matter to you how they are exhibited? I love Prague, but I find it quite hard to justify the fact that, as recently as 2012, a vast sum of money was spent on a hippo enclosure without any grass or mud whatsoever, the land area consisting solely of concrete and not even being that big. A decently deep pool, which along with the underwater viewing is clearly where all the money went. And even that is a bit of a waste, as while the indoor underwater viewing is great, the outdoor one really isn't, with murky water leading to awful visibility. On my visit, the hippos were in a fairly similar position to where they were in the image below, and you couldn't even make out an outline of them at all from the glass panels. As @oflory says, I believe it is slightly less of an atrocity than the elephant and rhino enclosures at Antwerp, hence why I haven't marked Prague down for it in my voting; but if I was as much of an admirer of the species as you appear to be, then it may well have done.

Just ensuring that you're aware of the full picture - not trying to encourage you to vote any way, and of course will be voting Prague myself.

Credit: @FunkyGibbon

Credit: @MagpieGoose

As promised, I have looked through the Planckendael galleries, and although there is a lot of a high standard there and no real blemishes, there isn't anything, other than perhaps the elephant enclosure, that approaches the upper tier of Prague's enclosures, and certainly nothing to approach what may well be the greatest of ungulate display on the planet in the cliffside paddocks. Sticking with my 4-1 until convinced otherwise.

 

[Jogy]

I've visited all three zoos in the last 3 years and do fully agree to what has been said in most of the previous posts.

While I really liked the historic settings of Antwerp and how they utillize the little room they have to the best possible - they are just not having the size for being competitive in the hoofstock competition.

Regarding Planckendael I also remember that they have really nice and spacious hoofstock enclosures with a nice collection of animals and a great elephant enclosure - however and that's the pitty for them here - they can't compare to Prague in this category who is really outstanding!

I am torn between 3:2 and 4:1 for Prague and for now going with the latter