European (Tea)Cup - League B - Prague vs Wroclaw

Prague vs Wroclaw - PRIMATES

  • Prague 5/0 Wroclaw

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Prague 4/1 Wroclaw

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wroclaw 3/2 Prague

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wroclaw 4/1 Prague

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wroclaw 5/0 Prague

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

TeaLovingDave

Moderator
Staff member
15+ year member
Thus far in the Cup, Prague has had a particularly strong run of victories - but now it faces off against a competitor which has *also* yet to lose a match. Can Wroclaw break the winning streak of their Czech rival, and strengthen their own position?

Only your votes, the discussion and debate which accompany them, and the category of PRIMATES will determine the answer.
 
They are Zoos in the ZooChat Cup that can challenge Prague in this category, but I don't believe Wroclaw is ready for this.

Wroclaw collection is actually bigger with some unique species, like Eastern Putty-nosed Monkey and Lac Alaotra bamboo lemur and some exciting Primate/Ungulate mixes, like Barbary Macaque/Mouflons and Pilated Gibbon/Indian Rhino exhibits. Chimpanzee indoor accommodation will not advocate in their favour, tho

Prague demonstrates superb quality and attention to their Primates with the new Gorilla/Colobuses house, excellent Moloch Gibon, Spider Monkey and Lemur islands and spectacular Barbary Macaque/Audad Rocks. Indonesian Jungle indoor quarters for Orangutan and Pig-tailed Macaques is not on level with the aforementioned exhibits, but are still stronger than Wrocław's Primate house.

3-2 for Prague.
 
Prague has 16 primate types lacking in Wroclaw and gets 30 points for types found in up to 10 European collections
Wroclaw has 21 primate types lacking in Prague and gets 8 points for types found in up to 10 European collections
A 46-29 win for Prague equates to a 3-2 win
 
First things first, here are the species lists for the two collections per ZTL.

Wrocław:
Barbary Macaque
Black-and-white Colobus
Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur
Black Howler
Common Chimpanzee
Common Mangabey
Common Marmoset
Crowned Lemur
Diana Monkey
Eastern Putty-nosed Monkey
Golden-headed Lion Tamarin
Goodman's Mouse-lemur
L'hoest's Monkey
Lac Aloatra Gentle Lemur
Lar
Northern Talapoin
Northern White-cheeked Gibbon
Olive Baboon
Pileated Gibbon
Red-ruffed Lemur
Ring-tailed Lemur
South American Squirrel Monkey
Sulawesi Crested Macaque
White-faced Capuchin
White-faced Saki
Yellow-breasted Capuchin

Total: 26

Prague:
Barbary Macaque
De Brazza's Monkey
Ganzhorn's Mouse-lemur
Garnett's Greater Bushbaby
Goeldi's Monkey
Goodman's Mouse-lemur
Javan Gibbon
Kikuyu Colobus
Mexican Spider Monkey
Moholi Bushbaby
Northern Talapoin
Ring-tailed Lemur
Senegal Bushbaby
South American Squirrel Monkey
Sumatran Orangutan
Sunda Slow Loris
Sunda Pig-tailed Macaque
Western Lowland Gorilla
White-belted Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur
White-fronted Lemur

Total: 19

So all in all, Wrocław leads by some margin on species numbers alone. Prague arguably has a more appealing collection with rarities such as Sunda Slow Loris and Garnett's Greater Bushbaby, although it is worth noting that both mouse-lemur species are offshow, and the Polish collection has several scarcely kept species of its own, such as the Putty-nosed Monkeys, the Goodman's Mouse-lemurs (onshow here, unlike at Prague) and White-faced Capuchin. I could be mistaken, but as I have no recollection of seeing them, I believe Prague's Goeldi's Monkeys are offshow, too, meaning just 15 onshow species in the Czech capital.

Moving away from the collection, I know very little about Wrocław, but can run through some of Prague's most notable offerings, both the best and the worst, in the hope of allowing others to cast a more informed vote.

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@Robaque - orangutan outdoors

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@Kalaw - Sunda Pig-tailed Macaque island

INDONESIAN JUNGLE - the Sumatran Orangutan enclosure is quite mediocre, although personally it has never struck me as truly bad as many others would say. I thought the Pig-tailed Macaque enclosure was quite large and enriching, although the concrete is an eyesore and its all-indoors. In the nocturnal corridor is a very nicely designed enclosure for what may be the only Sunda Slow Loris in European zoos.

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@Robaque - Senegal Bushbaby enclosure (normally nocturnally lit during visitor hours, but I assume this was taken very early in the morning when the lights were still on?)

AFRICA UP CLOSE - there is a rather standard-sized and densely planted cage for Ring-tailed and White-fronted Lemurs in the outdoor portion of this exhibit. Indoors, the highlight for me was the huge troop of Senegal Bushbabies; I am not sure exactly how many are kept, but I counted 9 in a large nocturnal room shared with giant jumping rats, with the many branches allowing for endless joy watching the lively animals leap between them. An adjacent enclosure mixes Moholis with tenrecs, and elsewhere in the building Garnett's Greater Bushababy, who sadly proved very elusive on my visit, share with mongooses.

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@MagpieGoose - gorilla family indoors

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@twilighter - gorilla family outdoors

DJA RESERVE - one of Prague's newest exhibits holding a family group of Western Gorillas, sharing with Kikuyu Colobus. The indoor room for them is surely one of the largest in Europe, certainly the largest that I have seen, and it offers a solid amount of climbing and various different substrates for foraging, too. The outdoors is also huge with an acceptable amount of climbing, but for a rainforest species it is simply far too sparse. Maybe this will change in due time, with the occasional trees and bushes maturing with age. Elsewhere in the building, De Brazza's Monkeys share with Red River Hogs in a great enclosure (for the monkeys, less so for the hogs) and Gabon Talapoins share with porcupines.

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@Kalaw - view from below

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@Kalaw - view from above

ROCK OUTCROP - only one primate enclosure here, but it's a good one. Prague's outstanding cliffside mountain bovid enclosures are well-renowned, but what is rarely discussed is that one of the three enclosures (for Barbary Sheep) also houses Barbary Macaques. In places, the drop is near vertical, and to add to the aesthetic awe there are several trees littered across it. Surely one of the best primate enclosures in the world, and I would be surprised if Wrocław has anything that can equal it.

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@FunkyGibbon - gorilla outdoors

MÉFOU CENTRE - once known as the Gorilla Pavilion, but renamed to help distinguish it from Dja, this exhibit houses a small bachelor group of Western Gorillas. The indoors was closed for renovations on my visit, but looks decent in photos. The outdoors is somewhat small, but not too small, and may be one of the best-landscaped gorilla enclosures which I have ever seen in person, with several trees, all fences obscured by the undulating design and the placement of rocks, and a nice water feature. It is great that the zoo can keep both a bachelor and family group.

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@Kalaw - Mexican Spider Monkey island

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@Chapman'szebra - squirrel monkey island

WATER WORLD AND MONKEY ISLANDS - last but not least, this very charming area of the zoo, which is littered with streams creating small islands, in many places traversed by small bridges, features, among other things, five different primate enclosures. The squirrel and spider monkey (the latter of the rarely seen Mexican subspecies) islands are amongst the best-looking I have ever seen, with near limitless climbing for the animals found in mature trees. On my visit, I got lost in the labyrinth of moats and missed the Javan Gibbon enclosure, but it looks nice in photos. Similarly attractive and enriching is the walkthrough Ring-tailed Lemur island, with a bizarre glass-walled tower serving as their indoor cage. My personal favourite, purely due to the liveliness on offer during my visit, is the Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur island.

All in all, Prague is reasonably strong in terms of primates, but it is arguably its weakest of the four mammal-based categories, with a somewhat small onshow collection and a rather mediocre orangutan enclosure. Certainly, with the outstanding macaque enclosure, multiple delightful gorilla houses, the wonderful islands in the lower portion of the zoo, the massive troop of Senegal Bushbabies and the several rarities, I would say the strengths outweigh the weaknesses here, but there are some zoos that could exploit Prague on this category. I am not sure if Wrocław is that zoo, but I don't know enough about it to comment, and would be very much interested to hear the opinion of someone more familiar with the Polish side than myself. With their numerical advantage and the occasional area of weakness at Prague, I feel as though, unless Wrocław is shockingly poor enclosure-wise, they have the potential to garner a few votes here and generate some interesting discussion, although it all seems a little one-sided at the moment.
 
Prague demonstrates superb quality and attention to their Primates with the new Gorilla/Colobuses house, excellent Moloch Gibon, Spider Monkey and Lemur islands and spectacular Barbary Macaque/Audad Rocks. Indonesian Jungle indoor quarters for Orangutan and Pig-tailed Macaques is not on level with the aforementioned exhibits, but are still stronger than Wrocław's Primate house.
Not to mention the enclosures for bush babies (greater and lesser), mouse lemurs, and white headed lemur (?) in Africa Up Close which were mid, as in neither atrocious nor stellar. The white-headed lemur enclosure (which held talapoins at my visit) did not impress me with the enclosure feeling narrow for what it used to hold and currently holds. I don’t know if that enclosure has an outdoor access but it it doesn’t then it will be a tougher sell than what it actually is.
 
multiple delightful gorilla houses,

I think i can't go with that one. Didn't even the director say, that the old gorilla house (Mefou) isn't longer suitable for the apes anymore before they built the new exhibit and they just changed their mind so they could go on with breeding?

And for the other gorilla house (Dja) i had a very interesting talk with a (non prague) gorilla keeper a few months ago, who saw the house backstage. Her conclusion: Fabulous especially for the keepers and also for the visitors. But disappointing for the apes and monkeys.

I will vote for Prague, but i'm not sure if either of the two zoos deserves a win within this category.
 
. With their numerical advantage and the occasional area of weakness at Prague, I feel as though, unless Wrocław is shockingly poor enclosure-wise, they have the potential to garner a few votes here and generate some interesting discussion, although it all seems a little one-sided at the moment.

I'm definitely hoping that someone has the time and mental energy to write up a post making the case for Wroclaw - if no one else does so by tomorrow evening I will try to put something together, however.
 
First things first, here are the species lists for the two collections per ZTL.

Wrocław:
Barbary Macaque
Black-and-white Colobus
Black-and-white Ruffed Lemur
Black Howler
Common Chimpanzee
Common Mangabey
Common Marmoset
Crowned Lemur
Diana Monkey
Eastern Putty-nosed Monkey
Golden-headed Lion Tamarin
Goodman's Mouse-lemur
L'hoest's Monkey
Lac Aloatra Gentle Lemur
Lar
Northern Talapoin
Northern White-cheeked Gibbon
Olive Baboon
Pileated Gibbon
Red-ruffed Lemur
Ring-tailed Lemur
South American Squirrel Monkey
Sulawesi Crested Macaque
White-faced Capuchin
White-faced Saki
Yellow-breasted Capuchin

Total: 26

I also noted during my trip in September 2024 Red-bellied lemur, 2 seen
 
Didn't even the director say, that the old gorilla house (Mefou) isn't longer suitable for the apes anymore before they built the new exhibit and they just changed their mind so they could go on with breeding?
Not sure what you mean by this, but as far as I know they never "changed their mind." It was always the plan to continue keeping a breeding of gorillas while also keeping a bachelor group, and that was the whole reason for constructing Dja. The thing that did change was where the bachelor group were going to be kept. The plan was initially to keep them in a second enclosure in Dja (I believe what is now the RRH and De Brazza's Monkey enclosure), but they eventually decided to keep them in the old Gorilla Pavilion, I believe as the intended new space for them in Dja wasn't deemed sufficient, whereas the old enclosure was. If Bobek did say that Méfou isn't suitable, I suspect he meant that it isn't appropriate for a large family, but for a bachelor group of three or four males this is not the case. By no means an expert on gorilla welfare, but it struck me as perfectly spacious enough, with enough climbing and privacy, for a bachelor group, with the caveat that the indoors could not be seen. If I am mistaken on any of the above points then feel free to correct me.
 
Not sure what you mean by this, but as far as I know they never "changed their mind." It was always the plan to continue keeping a breeding of gorillas while also keeping a bachelor group, and that was the whole reason for constructing Dja. The thing that did change was where the bachelor group were going to be kept. The plan was initially to keep them in a second enclosure in Dja (I believe what is now the RRH and De Brazza's Monkey enclosure), but they eventually decided to keep them in the old Gorilla Pavilion, I believe as the intended new space for them in Dja wasn't deemed sufficient, whereas the old enclosure was. If Bobek did say that Méfou isn't suitable, I suspect he meant that it isn't appropriate for a large family, but for a bachelor group of three or four males this is not the case. By no means an expert on gorilla welfare, but it struck me as perfectly spacious enough, with enough climbing and privacy, for a bachelor group, with the caveat that the indoors could not be seen. If I am mistaken on any of the above points then feel free to correct me.

The things seem to be slightly different than i remembered. When they startet with the planing of Dja, they said that they need a new gorilla exhibit, because the old house is within the flood zone and evacuating the gorillas is quite impossible/very risky. Therefore they can't use the house anymore for the gorillas.

Still kind of strange to saying, you can't keep the animals there in the future and just changing the plans without a real change of the situation.
 
A fairly quiet match, but an enjoyable one nonetheless:

Prague - 69/115 points - 60.000%
Wroclaw - 36/115 points - 40.000%
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