European (Tea)Cup - League C - Beauval vs Frankfurt

[TeaLovingDave]

Two zoological collections which have yet to see action within the current Cup until now, facing off against one another within a category which - again - we haven't dealt with thus far: MOUNTAINS AND POLES.

The scope of this one is fairly obvious, I suspect, but to clarify - any species found within mountain ranges and high uplands is eligible for consideration, as are those species found in the Arctic, Antarctic and immediately adjacent regions (so as to avoid people splitting hairs about, for instance, places such as the sub-Antarctic islands which are technically not polar), along with exhibits relevant to these areas.

As always, you have three days to discuss, debate and vote - have fun, and play fair!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Don't know anywhere near as much about Beauval as I would like, so I suspect that this discussion will lead to me learning a *lot* for now, based on the fact that I think Frankfurt has a fair few relevant taxa but not *that* many, I shall make a preliminary 3:2 vote for said collection which is extremely subject to change.

 

[twilighter]

One of the most beautiful and well-developed areas at Beauval - The Heights of Asia lies into this category. Both Pandas, Snow Leopard, Bearded Vulture and Superb Takin Exhibit.

When add the North American Teritory with huge forested exhibits for Arctic Wolfs and Brown Bears it seems to me a very strong category for Beauval.

Frankfurt welcomes you with the excellent Spectacled Bears/Bush Dog home Ukumuri Land representing the Andean forest and has a new Harbour Seal pond that, I think goes into poles category.

Both zoos have what to offer, but I believe that Beauval has more diversity in this category and will give them the lead 3:2

 

[Jogy]

From my perspective Frankfurt significantly less to offercompared to Beauval in this category.

The following mammal species I'd sort into this category for Frankfurt

• Spectacled bear
• Rock hyrax
• Harbour seal (here I'm not sure whether this suites to 'Pole' region)
• Vicunja
• West Caucasian tur

For Beauval I found the following species

• Barbary macaque
• European brown bear
• Gold takin
• Giant Panda
• Mishmi takin
• Raccoon (not fully sure whether it should count here)
• Persian Leopard (not fully sure whether it should count here)
• Mountain lion
• Snow leopard
• Red Panda
• Wolf

Looking at the enclosures (surely some picutures might follow) the spectacled bear enclosure is really beautiful - on the other hand the West Caucasian tur enclosure I don't remember as being so great...

For Beauval - as mentioned before - the Heights of Asia and the brown bear / wolf enclosure I found really amazing.

So I'm tending to a 4:1 for Beauval.

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

I think the harbour seal counts. Its range covers Alaska, the top of the Scandinavian region, Iceland and a bit of Greenland. It doesn't seem any different from counting the sub-Antarctic islands.

 

[Kalaw]

Have been to Beauval, but never Frankfurt.

It is pretty difficult to vote against the French collection here due to how much more they have on offer, at least in terms of mammals. However, I simply cannot go for a 4-1, as I am not all too fond of a lot of Beauval's enclosures in this category.

For instance, the Puma and Persian Leopard (if the latter count) cages are probably the worst that I have seen for cats of their size, with limited climbing, privacy and space. I have never quite shared the same fondness of Beauval's bear and wolf enclosures as some other seem to; yes there is a lot of space on offer, but the enclosures are too sparsely and inappropriately planted to really represent a Eurasian woodland and offer the inhabitants sufficient shade and privacy. On my visit a few years ago, the heat was excruciating and the bears had very little shade to cool off. The Mishmi Takin enclosure is huge and offers some decent height, but I feel it could maybe do with a little more steepness - I confess I am nitpicking somewhat, though. Love the Snow Leopard and Giant Panda enclosures, as well as the raccoon and macaque enclosures to a lesser extent. When it comes to birds, I don't really like the pinioned cranes mixed with the takins, and there are quite a few other flight-restricted birds throughout the zoo, some of which I assume are category-relevant, but there is a very nice rarity in the Andean Cock-of-the-rock, free-flight in a large greenhouse.

I still feel as though Beauval's nice enclosures, rarities and larger collection give them the edge here, but there are too many substandard enclosures for said edge to be of a great margin, and this is coming from someone who (unlike a lot of ZC members, it seems) is really fond of the place. 3-2 for me. Perhaps someone more familiar with Frankfurt can detail their non-mammal offerings in this category and I could be tempted to switch.

Below are some photos from Beauval to demonstrate my point about the inconsistent exhibitry.

@Maguari - Puma enclosure (no photos of the leopard enclosure in the gallery, but from memory it is very similar)

@lintworm - Brown Bear (and Arctic Wolf? they weren't mixed on my 2019 visit but this may have changed since) enclosure

@twilighter - Mishmi Takin and crane (unsure of species) encosure

@twilighter - one of the Giant Panda enclosures

@twilighter - Snow Leopard enclosure

Another factor in Beauval's favour is the theming of the 'Hills of China' enclosure, which in my opinion is very nicely done. The mist machines and panda topiaries as you approach made my first ever encounter with the species even more memorable, the pagodas are tastefully done and the many tea leaves and bamboo trees that surround it do some botanical theming.

So all in all, I do feel as though Beauval deserves to win, but they are perhaps not as strong in this category as one might initially think, and could be open to persuasion.

 

[twilighter]

Have been to Beauval, but never Frankfurt.

It is pretty difficult to vote against the French collection here due to how much more they have on offer, at least in terms of mammals. However, I simply cannot go for a 4-1, as I am not all too fond of a lot of Beauval's enclosures in this category.

For instance, the Puma and Persian Leopard (if the latter count) cages are probably the worst that I have seen for cats of their size, with limited climbing, privacy and space. I have never quite shared the same fondness of Beauval's bear and wolf enclosures as some other seem to; yes there is a lot of space on offer, but the enclosures are too sparsely and inappropriately planted to really represent a Eurasian woodland and offer the inhabitants sufficient shade and privacy. On my visit a few years ago, the heat was excruciating and the bears had very little shade to cool off. The Mishmi Takin enclosure is huge and offers some decent height, but I feel it could maybe do with a little more steepness - I confess I am nitpicking somewhat, though. Love the Snow Leopard and Giant Panda enclosures, as well as the raccoon and macaque enclosures to a lesser extent. When it comes to birds, I don't really like the pinioned cranes mixed with the takins, and there are quite a few other flight-restricted birds throughout the zoo, some of which I assume are category-relevant, but there is a very nice rarity in the Andean Cock-of-the-rock, free-flight in a large greenhouse.

I still feel as though Beauval's nice enclosures, rarities and larger collection give them the edge here, but there are too many substandard enclosures for said edge to be of a great margin, and this is coming from someone who (unlike a lot of ZC members, it seems) is really fond of the place. 3-2 for me. Perhaps someone more familiar with Frankfurt can detail their non-mammal offerings in this category and I could be tempted to switch.

Below are some photos from Beauval to demonstrate my point about the inconsistent exhibitry.

@Maguari - Puma enclosure (no photos of the leopard enclosure in the gallery, but from memory it is very similar)

@lintworm - Brown Bear (and Arctic Wolf? they weren't mixed on my 2019 visit but this may have changed since) enclosure

@twilighter - Mishmi Takin and crane (unsure of species) encosure

@twilighter - one of the Giant Panda enclosures

@twilighter - Snow Leopard enclosure

Another factor in Beauval's favour is the theming of the 'Hills of China' enclosure, which in my opinion is very nicely done. The mist machines and panda topiaries as you approach made my first ever encounter with the species even more memorable, the pagodas are tastefully done and the many tea leaves and bamboo trees that surround it do some botanical theming.

So all in all, I do feel as though Beauval deserves to win, but they are perhaps not as strong in this category as one might initially think, and could be open to persuasion.

Thank you for the nice post @Kalaw! The Big cats old exhibits and Puma enclosures in particular were upgraded and expanded in 2023, after Beauval moved the Lions in the new La Terre Des Lions territory. This is a Puma's exhibit view from the upper path.



Is good to mention also the Andean Condors reintroduction program, that Beauval Nature working with and which representatives' have a high Aviary next to the Bird Show area. This is part of it:


I am not sure, if we count Bongos (both Zoos have them), but I keep good memories from Beauval's exhibit.


The Takins are living with Red-crowned Cranes.

 

[Philipine eagle]

I am not sure, if we count Bongos (both Zoos have them), but I keep good memories from Beauval's exhibit.

They are indeed mountain bongos, and they have Central-Kenyan mountain regions as their habitat. So they definitely count.

 

[Philipine eagle]

From my perspective Frankfurt significantly less to offercompared to Beauval in this category.

The following mammal species I'd sort into this category for Frankfurt

• Spectacled bear
• Rock hyrax
• Harbour seal (here I'm not sure whether this suites to 'Pole' region)
• Vicunja
• West Caucasian tur

Don’t forget Chilean flamingo, Chilean chinchilla, Goodfellow’s Tree Kangaroo, Hamadryas baboon, Michie’s Tufted deer, Kilimanjaro white-eye, Kea, Striated caracara, and depending on to what altitude we can include: Montserrat oriole,

 

[Lafone]

Interesting stuff. I went to Frankfurt when I was little so cannot reall much of it at all and have never been to Beauval so this is a good one to observe the debate before casting!

I do really like the upgraded Beuval Puma enclosure and move to make those spaces better. And the panda and takin combination is strong for me, though I am not in love with the panda programme and relationship with China, still can't deny they are enjoyaable and do want to see them have great areas.

Will have to have a look at the galleries as well as reading the comments...great info so far. Would love to hear more about Frankfurt.

 

[lintworm]

Frankfurt's main strength in this category would indeed be their spectacled bear enclosure, which is excellent:

For the rest it is more of a standard affair, in many cases not much wrong with it. Some examples

bongo exhibit, picture shows about 25% of the enclosure. It is shared with red river hog.

The classic bird of prey aviary has aviaries for striated caracara & Egyptian vulture (no bearded vultures anymore)

A set of old cages has kea and Goodfellow's tree kangaroo

@Maguari

Red-crowned crane and tufted deer are kept in a spacious well-planted paddock

@carlos55

The lowlight would clearly be the hamadryas baboon, which given the altitudes it can reach would count, even though it is not really a mountain species...

Don’t forget Chilean flamingo, Chilean chinchilla, Goodfellow’s Tree Kangaroo, Hamadryas baboon, Michie’s Tufted deer, Kilimanjaro white-eye, Kea, Striated caracara, and depending on to what altitude we can include: Montserrat oriole,

There are no Chinchilla in Zoo Frankfurt.

Overall Beauval has a higher standard. Their panda complex is after Berlin the best I have seen and the enclosure level of others is also fairly high. I am not a big fan of their snow leopard cage and they also get less points for me for mixing cranes with their takin. Overall still 3-2 for Beauval for me.

 

[Kalaw]

Thank you for the nice post @Kalaw! The Big cats old exhibits and Puma enclosures in particular were upgraded and expanded in 2023, after Beauval moved the Lions in the new La Terre Des Lions territory. This is a Puma's exhibit view from the upper path.
View attachment 765624


Is good to mention also the Andean Condors reintroduction program, that Beauval Nature working with and which representatives' have a high Aviary next to the Bird Show area. This is part of it:
View attachment 765626

I am not sure, if we count Bongos (both Zoos have them), but I keep good memories from Beauval's exhibit.
View attachment 765628

The Takins are living with Red-crowned Cranes.

Very glad to hear that the Puma enclosure has been improved, it looks quite decent in that photo, did the leopard and tiger enclosures (although of course only the former is relevant to the discussion at hand) receive the same treatment? Although a slight correction - 'La Terre des Lions' opened in 2017, so predates the 2023 renovations you mention by quite some time. I too found loved the Beauval bongo enclosure, and I found it to be one of the most beautiful areas of the zoo with the valley for the bird show below it and the Dome overlooking it.

Looking at the Frankfurt photos, I feel quite confident in a Beauval victory here, as the German collection appears to have some issues of its own with more pinioned birds and some fairly small aviaries for birds of prey. But the number of similar issues in Saint-Aignan, and the apparent excellence of the bear and seal enclosures at Frankfurt, keep me at 3-2, no greater.

 

[twilighter]

Very glad to hear that the Puma enclosure has been improved, it looks quite decent in that photo, did the leopard and tiger enclosures (although of course only the former is relevant to the discussion at hand) receive the same treatment? Although a slight correction - 'La Terre des Lions' opened in 2017, so predates the 2023 renovations you mention by quite some time. I too found loved the Beauval bongo enclosure, and I found it to be one of the most beautiful areas of the zoo with the valley for the bird show below it and the Dome overlooking it.

Looking at the Frankfurt photos, I feel quite confident in a Beauval victory here, as the German collection appears to have some issues of its own with more pinioned birds and some fairly small aviaries for birds of prey. But the number of similar issues in Saint-Aignan, and the apparent excellence of the bear and seal enclosures at Frankfurt, keep me at 3-2, no greater.

Even after the opening of the La Terre des Lions, Beauval was still keeping Lions, Giant Anteaters and Porcupines at the Upper path of the Cat Woodlands. In 2023 the last Lions left the area, The Giant Anteater moved to the Big South American Aviary and the whole area was dedicated to the Pumas. And the Leopards also got an extension on the expense of the former Pumas space.

 

[Kalaw]

Even after the opening of the La Terre des Lions, Beauval was still keeping Lions, Giant Anteaters and Porcupines at the Upper path of the Cat Woodlands. In 2023 the last Lions left the area, The Giant Anteater moved to the Big South American Aviary and the whole area was dedicated to the Pumas. And the Leopards also got an extension on the expense of the former Pumas space.

Sorry for misinterpreting your comment. Wasn't it only the leucistic lions remaining after La Terre des Lions opened? Do they now live with the main pride?

Apologies for going off-topic. Very glad to hear about the leopard enclosure expansion (which of course is relevant), and that was quite possibly one of the weakest enclosures that I had ever seen in a zoo, certainly one of Beauval's standard. Regarding this category, the fact that Beauval has recently made improvements for two of the few remaining weaker areas deserves praise in my opinion, considering how often zoos (at times including Beauval) waste money on exhibits that don't need improvement or addition all the while animals continue to live in older, inadequate housing.

 

[twilighter]

Sorry for misinterpreting your comment. Wasn't it only the leucistic lions remaining after La Terre des Lions opened? Do they now live with the main pride?

Apologies for going off-topic. Very glad to hear about the leopard enclosure expansion (which of course is relevant), and that was quite possibly one of the weakest enclosures that I had ever seen in a zoo, certainly one of Beauval's standard. Regarding this category, the fact that Beauval has recently made improvements for two of the few remaining weaker areas deserves praise in my opinion, considering how often zoos (at times including Beauval) waste money on exhibits that don't need improvement or addition all the while animals continue to live in older, inadequate housing.

I need to apologies, because my comment was not exactly clear. Yes, the last White Lion moved to La Terre des Lions area, but in a separate off show building. She passed away last month unfortunately.

 

[Philipine eagle]

I've voted 3:2 in favor of Beauval and actually I'm leaning to 4:1 because the collection of Beauval is far better in terms of birds of prey, with a couple of clearly mountain specialists: Golden eagle, Andean condor, Bearded vulture, Himalayan griffon vulture, Western Eurasian griffon vulture, Steppe eagle,and White-headed vulture. The latter two are not exclusively mountain species but they do occur at high altitudes.

And it is also better in ungulates and carnivores as well.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Per the repeatedly-stated rules relating to voting in the Zoochat Cup, please either provide sufficient explanation for your 5:0 vote or alter it @GiratinaIsGod

 

[GiratinaIsGod]

Per the repeatedly-stated rules relating to voting in the Zoochat Cup, please either provide sufficient explanation for your 5:0 vote or alter it @GiratinaIsGod

simply, Frankfurts can not comeat exhibits can compear to the top exhibits with beauval. Frankfurt has very few modern exhibits, and (only the standart modern penguin and the speceled bear really). If it would still had their cold weather penguins (in that old smal exhibit), just becuase of their rareity, I would maybe gave 4 to 1. But it was a unfair compearson, from one of frances largest and (largely) modern zoos, to a smal cty zoo, hich just started to modernize

 

[oflory]

I haven't visited either zoo (though will be in Frankfurt in March). For all the reasons stated above, and the photos, I lean towards Beauval here.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

simply, Frankfurts can not comeat exhibits can compear to the top exhibits with beauval. Frankfurt has very few modern exhibits, and (only the standart modern penguin and the speceled bear really). If it would still had their cold weather penguins (in that old smal exhibit), just becuase of their rareity, I would maybe gave 4 to 1. But it was a unfair compearson, from one of frances largest and (largely) modern zoos, to a smal cty zoo, hich just started to modernize

I have to admit that I don't particularly think your logic holds up strongly enough to earn the 5-0 vote, given the fact that:

1. You state that Frankfurt has very few modern exhibits at the same standard as Beauval and that this fact is worthy of a 5-0 vote, yet....
2. ...also state that you would have given Frankfurt a single point, and hence voted 4-1 overall, if it had one fewer modern exhibit than it already does and still had the "old smal exhibit" for penguins rather than the "standart modern" exhibit which replaced it, along with....
3. ...the insinuation that (akin to the complaints in a prior match by Kifaru Bwana) that your vote is also a protest at the match existing in the first place!

However, I think none of these facts merit dismissing your vote entirely - as such, I've amended my own vote to soften the excessive impact which your own will have on the final percentages, with the caveat that if a flurry of further votes are made in the final three hours of this match which will also serve this purpose I shall return the vote to the prior status