European (Tea)Cup - League C - Frankfurt vs London & Whipsnade

Frankfurt vs London & Whipsnade - TEMPERATE FOREST AND WOODLAND

  • Frankfurt 5/0 ZSL

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Frankfurt 4/1 ZSL

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Frankfurt 3/2 ZSL

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .

TeaLovingDave

Moderator
Staff member
15+ year member
This match represents something of a redemptive moment for both of the competitors - Frankfurt has just come out from a contest in which they were beaten fairly soundly by their rival, whilst the pair of ZSL collections have suffered a pair of slender defeats. But this time, one of them *will* achieve a much-desired victory in the category of TEMPERATE FORESTS AND WOODLAND - which, to clarify, *does* cover the boreal forest biome, despite the fact that these forests extend into the sub-Arctic zone.

You all have three days to make your case, defend your position and cast your vote :)
 
My gut instinct for this one is to give ZSL the edge based on the excellent exhibits for Eurasian native wildlife at Whipsnade, hence my preliminary 3:2 vote for ZSL, but my memory of how Frankfurt fares in this category is poor - so my vote may shift depending on how the discussion progresses.
 
If memory serves me well, we came to a conclusion in the previous World ZooChat Cup, that the Spectacled Bears teritory is eligable for this biome as well. This will put Ukumari again in a battle this week, but It will be difficult for them to earn more than 2 points.
 
Can't speak for London, but Whipsnade's main claim for Temperate Forest is easily the European section at the right of the entrance. Bears, Lynx, Bison, Wolverines, Wild Boar, Reindeer a little further up... sure, it doesn't have the wolves or moose that would have really sold the deal anymore, but it's still a fairly solid collection.
 
I'm going to go 4/1 to ZSL, mainly on the strength of Whipsnade's European area plus the fact that the much of the site IS a temperate woodland, in which the inhabitants look spectacular. I miss European wolves and elk there, but I feel comfortable giving ZSL a solid win.

Would the hazel dormouse reintroduction program count for the purposes of this round, even with the animals not on display at either London or Whipsnade?
 
Would the hazel dormouse reintroduction program count for the purposes of this round, even with the animals not on display at either London or Whipsnade?

It would, yes :) in my opinion offshow breeding programmes for reintroduction purposes are a bonus, even.
 
It would, yes :) in my opinion offshow breeding programmes for reintroduction purposes are a bonus, even.
Great - I'm happier with my 4/1 in that case. Plus, I didn't even consider the various deer species in Passage through Asia, which I suppose might also count depending on one's definition of a 'temperate woodland or forest'.
 
Would be very curious if someone familiar with Frankfurt can provide an overview of what they have in this category, Spectacled Bears aside, as otherwise, I struggle to see what keeps this from being a 5-0. Whipsnade has a bear enclosure that is arguably superior to Frankfurt's, fairly lengthy list of other high-quality enclosures in this category, reintroduction programmes with native Harvest Mice and a genuine mature woodland as the setting for its European enclosures. Will stick to 4-1 until someone can confirm my suspicions that Frankfurt only has Ukamari Land. :)
 
Some excellent photos in the gallery of Frankfurt. I spent time looking around and the Spectacled bear enclosure does look very well furnished

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@RonBurrgundy

and has access for other species. It undoubtedly conveys a sense of 'woodland'

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@RonBurrgundy

making use of the natural trees

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@Gil

and looking particularly nice in the 'green' months

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@lintworm

But while these are good areas and notwithstanding my clear natural bias (regular Whipsnader) I am still going to go for a 5/0 position.

While I think Frankfurt looks really good and I am not saying it pales to nothing, I think Whipsnade scores on woodland on so many more levels.

But anyway, in defence of this score;

The leading reason for my vote is the European area at Whipsnade, with Lynx leading to wild boar to Lady Yule's walk, home of bears and wolverines. The road from the entrance is framed by trees and the path, despite being built for thousands of visitors, still winds among trees. The exhibits themselves contain and are framed by woodland, a feature repeated across the whole estate.

The bear enclosure makes fantastic use of natural woodland and I refer to @Kalaw 's excellent post in the previous tea cup round which did a definitive job of highlighting the woodland in both exhibits, as well as more widely in the zoo (and below that informative post, well, there is a bear in a tree).

European (Tea)Cup - League C - Zoo Berlin vs London/Whipsnade

The enclosures here are spacious and well constructed with fantastic viewing, making great use of the wood with plenty of climbing opportunities for the animals. The woodland provides natural cover and shade and creates spaces for the animals to be off view if they want to. There is also chance for those 'moments' where you see the bears or the wolverine among the trees which adds to the adventure.

At the top of the zoo, the reindeer and the goats all have access to a great area of woodland in their enclosures (the goats extending much further to manage the grassland, but that might be another cup thought later).

Whipsnade then also has the advantage in that its natural woodland covers much of the zoo and offers a space for wildlife to flourish.

Visitors can get into the small areas of woodland themselves and see (as I did just the other weekend) the less common Jay or Green Woodpecker as well as large numbers of other native birds, from Blue tits and Blackbirds to Magpies and Carrion crows. There are also large numbers of the invasive grey squirrels who, while not native, still entertain from their drays in the high trees. The zoo also supports native species introduction with harvest mice etc. The woodland is also home to free roaming wallabies and the large trees offer a safe space for free roaming Mara to make their dens.

Woodland also features in other enclosures, for example for African hunting dogs and although a British wood might not be their natural terrain, I'd stretch the category in this round a little further to give points to enhancing the general quality of exhibitry. In that vein, I'd also highlight the use of mature trees to offer a great setting for Lowland Anoa and Sulewasi macaque. I saw the Macques in the trees for the first time the other day and it was a real wow.

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Trees and woodland surround and run through the zoo and appear in enclosures for Ostriches, Nilgay, lions, red pandas and tigers, to name a few.

For me it's a big result for the species the zoo is displaying for whom this category's woodland is their real home, but Whipsnade's wooded areas also offer a lot to other enclosures, native species and visitors alike, whether as a backdrop, a feature or just somewhere to explore.
 
Frankfurt was really unlucky and pick the short straws in the first two matches. I can't deny that this is David vs Goliath battle. I will switch to 4 - 1for ZSL as well. Frankfurt is one of the underdogs in this format, but they are one or two categories, that most of the players needs to be very careful not to face against the German Zoo.
 
If memory serves me well, we came to a conclusion in the previous World ZooChat Cup, that the Spectacled Bears teritory is eligable for this biome as well. This will put Ukumari again in a battle this week, but It will be difficult for them to earn more than 2 points.

Looking through ZTL, the other eligible mammal species are as follows:

  • Short-beaked Echidna
  • Eastern Quoll
  • Feather-tailed Glider

So not much indeed :rolleyes:
 
After careful consideration I have decided that I will, for the first time this tournament, vote 5-0 for any collection, which in this case is of course ZSL.

A big part of this is that ZSL has considerably more species that are category-relevant, of course. But in terms of exhibitry it is even more one-sided. Frankfurt does have an excellent bear enclosure, but Whipsnade can easily answer that with an even larger and in my opinion (having not been to Frankfurt) superior one, for European Browns, which has the added advantage of much historical interest seeing as it opened in the thirties, one of the first enclosures to move away from 'bear pits,' and is still one of the finest enclosures in the world for the species nearly a century later.

Wolverines, lynxes and bison are also treated to really high-quality enclosures, and there are some solid owl aviaries, too. Surely the Siberian Tigers, whose enclosure is quite possibly the biggest and best that I have seen in a zoo, count as well? Then there is the Hazel Dormice conservation work, too, and the badger vaccination project that was discussed in the Berlin thread. However Whipsnade's biggest selling point here, as @Lafone has already described very nicely, is the fact that it is actually set in a temperate woodland, and is therefore able to do remarkably well to evoke the setting in a way which I don't believe Frankfurt does - I get it isn't fair comparing a 240 hectare expanse of Bedfordshire countryside to an 11 hectare garden in the heart of a bustling German metropolis, but that is the truth of the matter.

London doesn't have as much as Whipsnade on offer, but it does have a little. In particular, I imagine all three species of midwife toad (Mallorcan, Iberian and Common) count for this category? Only the Mallorcan are onshow, with a very charming setup in SLoRA (new reptile house) where both egg-carrying adults and tadpoles can be observed, but all three are bred at the zoo. It also has a rather charming woodland walk section of its own along the banks of the Regent's Canal.

Overall, ZSL is far ahead in collection, exhibit quality, evocation of the setting in question and (unless I am missing something for Frankfurt) conservation work. It has a direct answer to what is probably Frankfurt's strongest asset in this category to top it off. If this isn't enough for me to vote 5-0, then I am not sure I ever will.

I hope this reasoning is sufficient enough to justify a 5-0. :)

And for anyone curious, here are some ZSL photos.

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@twilighter - European Brown Bear enclosure

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@MagpieGoose - Northern Lynx enclosure

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@Dr. Loxodonta - Wolverine enclosure

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@MagpieGoose - Central European Wild Boar enclosure

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@MagpieGoose - European Bison enclosure

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@Lafone - Siberian Tiger enclosure

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@Lafone - Great Grey Owl aviary

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@amur leopard - Mallorcan Midwife Toad vivarium
 
I think that 5-0 is too harsh verdict and Frankfurt deserves a point. I missed to mention the series of well done Walkthrough aviaries at the German zoo which are home of some species that could well fit in this category.

Common Hoopoe / European Roller / Edwards's pheasant
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European Bee-eater
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I think that 5-0 is too harsh verdict and Frankfurt deserves a point. I missed to mention the series of well done Walkthrough aviaries at the German zoo which are home of some species that could well fit in this category.

Common Hoopoe / European Roller / Edwards's pheasant
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European Bee-eater
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While some of Frankfurt's walkthroughs look lovely, I don't think they are enough to salvage a point when ZSL is just so far ahead. And, much like the bears, I would argue that ZSL have a direct answer to them with some nice walkthroughs of their own.

Your post inspired me to do a little more research on what birds at ZSL would be eligible, and I believe I have found a few that would make the Blackburn Pavilion count. For me, Blackburn Pavilion is one of the best-executed zoo exhibits of all time, with the brilliant repurposing of an old Victorian building into a modern bird house that maintains the beauty of older, traditional bird houses (use of wire rather than glass, for example, so that the wingbeats and calls of the birds can echo throughout the hall). The main walkthrough section seems to be quite a bit larger than either of the Frankfurt ones (hard to judge from photos, though, so I could be wrong), and offers the birds plenty of retreats and flight space. It is incredible to watch laughingthrushes flying around a huge aviary around your head, which the typical 'pheasantry' style enclosures so many zoos present them in will never offer.

I believe this main walkthrough should be eligible, as it houses Pekin Robin, Blue-crowned Laughingthrush, Collared Hill-partridge and Red-whiskered Bulbul, all of which I believe are at least partly found in temperate forests. Elsewhere in the building are Orange-headed Ground-thrush and Emei Shan Liocichla.

I will admit that Blackburn does have one weakness - its geographical inconsistency, and for biome-based categories some members may view that as a weakness as it is not actually representing a temperate forest. But for those who don't, it is, for both the visitors and animals, one of the very best enclosures around for temperate climate birds and is probably (although I am no doubt looking through my all-time favourite zoo exhibit through rose-tinted sunglasses) better than Frankfurt's temperate bird offerings.

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@amur leopard - entrance

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@Dr. Loxodonta - entrance hall / lobby

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@Crowthorne - main walkthrough

Please feel free to correct me if any of the species I listed above do not count for this category, or if there has been any rotation and some of the animals I claimed were in the walkthrough are now elsewhere in the building, or vice versa.
 
While some of Frankfurt's walkthroughs look lovely, I don't think they are enough to salvage a point when ZSL is just so far ahead. And, much like the bears, I would argue that ZSL have a direct answer to them with some nice walkthroughs of their own.

Your post inspired me to do a little more research on what birds at ZSL would be eligible, and I believe I have found a few that would make the Blackburn Pavilion count. For me, Blackburn Pavilion is one of the best-executed zoo exhibits of all time, with the brilliant repurposing of an old Victorian building into a modern bird house that maintains the beauty of older, traditional bird houses (use of wire rather than glass, for example, so that the wingbeats and calls of the birds can echo throughout the hall). The main walkthrough section seems to be quite a bit larger than either of the Frankfurt ones (hard to judge from photos, though, so I could be wrong), and offers the birds plenty of retreats and flight space. It is incredible to watch laughingthrushes flying around a huge aviary around your head, which the typical 'pheasantry' style enclosures so many zoos present them in will never offer.

I believe this main walkthrough should be eligible, as it houses Pekin Robin, Blue-crowned Laughingthrush, Collared Hill-partridge and Red-whiskered Bulbul, all of which I believe are at least partly found in temperate forests. Elsewhere in the building are Orange-headed Ground-thrush and Emei Shan Liocichla.

I will admit that Blackburn does have one weakness - its geographical inconsistency, and for biome-based categories some members may view that as a weakness as it is not actually representing a temperate forest. But for those who don't, it is, for both the visitors and animals, one of the very best enclosures around for temperate climate birds and is probably (although I am no doubt looking through my all-time favourite zoo exhibit through rose-tinted sunglasses) better than Frankfurt's temperate bird offerings.

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@amur leopard - entrance

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@Dr. Loxodonta - entrance hall / lobby

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@Crowthorne - main walkthrough

Please feel free to correct me if any of the species I listed above do not count for this category, or if there has been any rotation and some of the animals I claimed were in the walkthrough are now elsewhere in the building, or vice versa.

Nice overview. I have been to Blackburn Pavilion and can only admit that it's a lovely exhibit and I keep vivid memory from the Collared Trogon. The Frankfurt's Walktrough Vogelbusche is by no means smaller, tho

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London doesn't have as much as Whipsnade on offer, but it does have a little. In particular, I imagine all three species of midwife toad (Mallorcan, Iberian and Common) count for this category? Only the Mallorcan are onshow, with a very charming setup in SLoRA (new reptile house) where both egg-carrying adults and tadpoles can be observed, but all three are bred at the zoo. It also has a rather charming woodland walk section of its own along the banks of the Regent's Canal.

Not that it makes too much difference this time round, the point may be relevant in later matches; Mallorcan Midwife Toad would not be eligible for this category, as it is restricted to semi-arid mountain gorges and streams - as such it falls under Mountains and Poles.
 
By far the biggest landslide of the Cup so far, and whilst London and Whipsnade have finally snatched a victory after a pair of very close defeats, Frankfurt has a *lot* to prove going forward.....

Frankfurt - 26/135 points - 19.259%
London & Whipsnade - 109/135 points - 80.741%

Time will tell how each progresses beyond here, of course.
 
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