European (Tea)Cup - League C - Zoo Berlin vs Beauval

[TeaLovingDave]

This time round, we shall be taking a look at two competitors which each command large and loyal fanbases on this forum, and have many strengths and weaknesses - but in the category of HOOFSTOCK, which is the stronger?

That is the question upon which I hope the next three days of discussion and debate may shed some light - so let's see what all of you have to say on the matter!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

As my knowledge of Beauval is pretty limited - it is the only zoological collection in the Cup which I have never visited - I am tentatively parking my vote at 3:2 Berlin, given what little I know of the French collection in comparison to my extensive knowledge of the German collection.

I am, of course, open to being convinced to either switch my vote towards Beauval, or strengthen my pro-Berlin position.

 

[twilighter]

Waw, this is where the real ZooChat Cup begins. Argentina - Netherlands type of a game. Big category for Beauval. Giant African Elephants facility with Okapi/Yellow-backed duiker forest next door. Spacious Indian Rhino/Malayan Tapir/ Deers Asian Planes. Two subspecies of Takin. Gorgeous Bongo and Lesser Kudu exhibits. Unmatched Hippo/Nyala Aviary. Mandatory, but also quite standard Giraffe/Sable/Wildebeest Savanna. Zebra plains, etc.


Bornean Beared Pig, White-tailed Deer and Black Rhino. Those species Berlin just lost the last year or so, but still has one of the most impressive Hoofstock collections in Europe with shy of 50 taxa. Enter the Lion Gate one can imidiately claim that 60 years old Elephant House as major week point. But before you judge too hard, look around and see that they just rose the Indian Rhino Pagoda from the ashes, while right in front of you still shine 100 years old Goat Mountains. The history and animals can't be separated here. Probably the most well-known zoo building in the World, the Antelope house is still as magnificent today, as it probably stood in it's first version in 19th Century. The charming center of the Zoo is full of hoofstock wonders - lovely Deer garden, Wild Cattle ethnographic museum and Rustic Swine house perfectly complimenting the next door 1905 American Bison Building. The Zebra/Eland house and Oryx's paddocks bring even more history, while Hippo/Nyala Dome don't allow Berlin to only live in the past. Species like Okapi, Babirusa or Prince Alfred's Deer are side attractions here and one need something like Gerenuk, Gaur or newly arrived Yellow-backed Duiker to stop and truly admire the breadth of Berlin's Hoofstock collection. In many ways this particular collection inspired my love of Zoos and Ungulates and even that I acknowledge the Beauval strengths they can't match Berlin's charisma. 3:2 for Berlin.

 

[lintworm]

Berlin's strength apart from the size of the collection (49 vs 30 taxa in this category) is mostly charisma and the architecture around the zoo. There are some highlights in terms of enclosures like the Siberian ibex rock and the hippo house, but strip away the architecture and the majority of enclosures are smallish (often sandy) paddocks. And the elephant enclosure in Berlin, especially for the bull, is a real lowlight.

Beauval's level is consistently higher with spacious, often mixed-species, paddocks, that might lack the historical charm of Berlin, but in most cases offer a lot more for the inhabitants. Their pygmy hippo (smallish indoor only in the tropical house) is a lowlight, but on a different level than Berlin's elephants...

For me 3-2 Beauval, quality above charisma.

 

[amur leopard]

Quick run through of both zoos:

Berlin (photo creds @SivatheriumGuy, @DelacoursLangur, @JigerofLemuria, @ZooTripper365, @twilighter, @Green_mamba, @snowleopard, @lintworm)

Antelope House and surrounding exhibits:

(Gerenuk and dik-dik)

(Giraffe and waterbuck)

(Lechwe)

Ibex rock

Suid exhibits:

(White-lipped peccary)

HippoDom:

Rhino Pagoda:

(Rhino + Visayan warty pig)

(Rhino)

(Rhino)

(Tapir)

Blackbuck

Zebra+Eland:

 

[amur leopard]

Warthog:

Asian elephant:

Sitatunga

Banteng:

Ankole cattle:

Anoa

Still not everything Berlin has to offer, but it should give a pretty good taste...
Berlin can count themselves pretty lucky the Black rhino have left because that was, for me, the worst exhibit in the zoo by some margin for me. The elephant exhibit now acquires that title for me. Some very good exhibits for sure in Berlin - the rhino pagoda is excellent, the HippoDom is great, and of course the Antilopenhaus is tremendously beautiful. Having said this, there are a number of exhibits that do feel bare or small, especially when you look past the history behind the place.

 

[lintworm]

Here are some of Beauval's enclosures:

The huge elephant complex:

@Antoine

@twilighter

The barn is something of a very functionalistic design and the same can be said of most other indoor housing:

Mishmi & golden takin exhibit:

@twilighter

Indian rhino paddock (one of 2), shared with axis deer, nilgai & blackbuck:

@Maguari

Berlin has the wonderful looking pagoda and while their indoor accomodation might be better looking, Berlin has so many rhinos only 2 can be outside any given at any time and 2 are locked indoors... Compare that with Beauval which doesn't have more rhinos than it can cater for...

Paddock for Malayan tapir & hog deer:

@lintworm

Lowland tapir enclosure

@lintworm

Large paddock for Somali wild ass, lechwe & beisa oryx

@Maguari

Okapi & yellow-backed duiker enclosure (one of 2 outdoor enclosures)

@twilighter

Bongo exhibit (a similar large paddock houses lesser kudu & Kirk's dikdik)

@lintworm

Savanna exhibit with white rhino, reticulated giraffe, Grevy's zebra, gnu, sable & Mhor gazelle

@twilighter

Hippo aviary, with common hippo and side enclosure for red river hog & nyala

@twilighter

Hippo indoor housing:

@lintworm

The lowlight is the pair of pygmy hippo enclosures in the tropical dome:

@lintworm

But while especially the land part is too small, Berlin isn't better really. Their indoor accomodation is also far from optimal for pygmy hippo and while they have a good outdoor enclosure, it is only one, so there are always 1-2 pygmy hippos stuck in the small indoor quarters. At least in Beauval both animals have a somewhat better enclosure than that.

 

[amur leopard]

Berlin has the wonderful looking pagoda and while their indoor accomodation might be better looking, Berlin has so many rhinos only 2 can be outside any given at any time and 2 are locked indoors... Compare that with Beauval which doesn't have more rhinos than it can cater for...

Oh wow, that's a shame, didn't know that. Cheers for doing the work on the Beauval side of things .

I didn't realise before doing this how similar their ungulate collections were - both have both hippos, elephants, Indian rhinos, takins... Berlin has the larger collection and nicer buildings, but I think Beauval consistently outdoes even the high-points of Berlin (hippos, rhinos) and does far better at some of its low-points (elephants in particular isn't particularly comparable). If I were an ungulate, I would probably rather be in Beauval on that basis. 3-2 to Beauval for me.

 

[oflory]

This really shows the benefit of the discussion on these pages - I was probably a dead cert for Berlin when I woke up this morning, but Beauval looks like the exhibits are of a much higher consistent quality.

The rhinos at Berlin were a particular niggle for me when I was there last year - with, as @lintworm says, two shut in doors at any one time. Particularly egregious in a new and supposedly state of the art house.

 

[pipaluk]

Having been to both zoos I would suggest there is no contest for exhibits.
I love Berlin but i really can't see any point in anyone trying to make an argument for their exhibits. On exhibits alone this would be comfortably 4-1 to Beauval and only Berlin's hippodome would save it from 5-0 ( if you cancel that out with Beauval's hippo aviary it doesn't make much difference).
So it comes down to whether Berlin's larger number of species counts for enough to be more important than Beauval's exhibits.
If Beauval had a very small collection, say 10 species to 30 for Berlin, it might be more significant , but Beauval is still very strong on collection even though it has less than Berlin.
A comfortable 3-2 for me here

 

[amur leopard]

I'd really like to hear @Dylan's rationale for the 4-1 to Berlin...

 

[SivatheriumGuy]

I think Berlin is a better zoo overall, but Beauval ranks higher in the ungulate exhibitry. Collection-wise, as it has been discussed both zoos are pretty well balanced and despite not considering Berlin's ungulate exhibits as "bad" exhibits I do think they are poorer in general compared to Beauval; scimitar-horned oryxes, Przewalski's horses, gemsboks, both bison species... don't exactly live in excellent enclosures. Although taking everything into account, a single Berlin exhibit has way more charm than anything at Beauval.
The only ungulate exhibit I would say is truly bad at Beauval is the pygmy hippo exhibit (which is especially shameful seeing the enclosure of their common hippos and the fact that it was built in 2020, the Berlin paddocks at least have their age as an excuse), in valance Beauval is a better place to be an ungulate at.

 

[cornu aspersum]

I haven't raised this point in other ungulate matches, but since elephants count as part of this category, do manatees do too?

 

[pipaluk]

I haven't raised this point in other ungulate matches, but since elephants count as part of this category, do manatees do too?

They come under miscellaneous mammals - luckily for Berlin!

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

I do love Berlin, and the hippo house is a real highlight, but I can definitely see it suffers from being a "city zoo", especially in regards to their ungulates. I always remember the best enclosures in that aspect were in that little section over the bridge, but it's been years now and whether they're still there or not is another matter.

Can't confidently vote for Beauval since I've never been there, but those photos do look amazing.

 

[Kalaw]

I have been to Beauval and it is one of my absolute favourite zoos, but never to Berlin. That said, it is one of the zoos that I am most familiar with out of those that I have not visited, and at first I got the impression that they were far ahead in this category, with a 50% larger collection, world-class hippo and ibex enclosures, and gorgeous architecture both old (world-famous Antilopenhaus, gorgeous zebra and eland house, cottage-inspired Swine House and the heavily themed cattle stables) and new (elegant glass-roofed Hippo Dome and the new rhino pagoda, the tower of which I believe is a homage to the zoo's old Pachyderm House, an architectural wonder that was not rebuilt after being destroyed in the war), not to mention Gerenuk! But if it is true what lintworm says about how two rhinos and pygmy hippos are locked indoors at any one time due to lack of appropriate facilities, then that really changes things. Especially for the rhino pagoda, which opened in the past few years - the fact that an enclosure built that recently still makes such egregious welfare decisions as acquiring more animals than they can reasonably hold is just unacceptable, and it is beyond me why a world-renowned scientific establishment at Zoo Berlin would make such a decision. Is there anything I am missing? Are two of the rhinos intended to be moved elsewhere in the coming years, for example?

And the more that I reminisce on how much I enjoyed the ungulates at Beauval, the more I realise that they easily have what it takes to defeat Berlin here. Although their hippo enclosure is probably slightly weaker than Berlin's due to the relatively limited grazing options, the margin is quite fine, and the free-flying birds at Beauval really add something special. Watching hippos swim underwater while pelicans float along the surface and an egret builds its nest above my head was a special experience indeed.* The elephant enclosure and the savannah are both amazing, but I was also really impressed by the bongo and Brazilian Tapir enclosures. I somehow missed the okapi on my visit, but am really impressed by it in photos as well.

What I also really appreciate about Beauval is that the bulk of their enclosures here are either mixed-species (the African savannah, the Asian plains exhibit, the wild ass and oryx display, the okapi and duiker, etc) or have other ungulate enclosures nearby and therefore still give the impression of being surrounded by them (the nyala and Red River Hogs in the Hippo Aviary). Hence I would disagree with statements upthread that Beauval's enclosures has no charm; while there is nothing akin to the Antilopenhaus, huge, green fields filled with ungulates, usually in large breeding herds, has a charm of its own. And while talking about the greenery, that is another huge point in Beauval's favour; not a single enclosure ever feels overgrazed or downtrodden to my memory, and all the enclosures are gorgeously green. The collection at Beauval is the only letdown, and even then 30 species is huge, only dwarfed by the 49 of Berlin (which I suspect only the Tierpark of all the zoos in this cup can surpass). The collection is also probably a little less interesting than Berlin's with no Gerenuk-level rarity other than the Yellow-backed Duiker which can also be found at Berlin!

So all in all, after a lot of going back and forth, 3-2 Beauval for me. I cannot vote in favour of a collection that knowingly acquires more species than they can actually fit for an enclosure and ends up locking them indoors. However, it is certainly a close affair, and I look forward to seeing the rest of the discussion, which has already been excellent so far. Twilighter was spot on with that Netherlands / Argentina comparison, but the difference is we are only in the group stages! Will certainly compliment the final day of the Champions League group stage tonight very nicely.

(*I imagine this is a legitimate argument? Of course the egrets and pelicans aren't ungulates themselves, but as they enhance the experience and exhibitry of the ungulates, as well as the evocation of the setting where the ungulates originate from, they should surely be factored in to at least a very minor extent, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong and I will refrain from making such arguments in the future.)

 

[lintworm]

So all in all, after a lot of going back and forth, 3-2 Beauval for me. I cannot vote in favour of a collection that knowingly acquires more species than they can actually fit for an enclosure and ends up locking them indoors.

It has to be said that Beauval is also no saint in this regard. The pygmy hippo exhibit is the newest of them all and probably the weaked ungulate exhibit at the whole zoo. Similarly the common hippo exhibit could be much better if they would have allowed for more land area (which is there in the aviary, but blocked for the hippo) and the only separation option they have is the whole barn... Fortunately for them both hippo enclosures in Berlin also have serious issues. If they have to separate a common hippo there is no separation enclosure whatsoever except the small off-exhibit boxes....

 

[TeaLovingDave]

. I always remember the best enclosures in that aspect were in that little section over the bridge, but it's been years now and whether they're still there or not is another matter.

They are, and I'm somewhat surprised no one has bothered to mention them before you, or to provide a general overview of them - currently travelling myself, but if no one has beaten me to it I'll see what I can do tomorrow evening

The pygmy hippo exhibit is the newest of them all and probably the weaked ungulate exhibit at the whole zoo.

Which raises an interesting point - if Zoo Berlin merits condemnation for their newest major hoofstock exhibit being (although an otherwise very good exhibit) lacking in one key aspect, how much more condemnation should Beauval get for their newest hoofstock exhibit being the worst of its category in the whole zoo?

 

[amur leopard]

A few more photos of Beauval:

(Creds @twilighter, @antonmuster)

(Pygmy hippo)

(Common hippo, plus a better idea of the land area available to the hippos).

I understand the argument around the pygmy hippo exhibit, and agree that it is poor that such an exhibit was made from scratch recently, but I also believe that the worst in Beauval is still substantially better than the worst in Berlin, and that the best at Beauval is substantially better than Berlin's best. As for exhibit measurements for the species in common, it'll come as no surprise that Beauval is on top for most of them, but the degree to which this is the case might.

Elephants
Berlin:
Bull outdoor: 750 sqm
Cow outdoor: 3,200 sqm
Indoor holdings (including visitor/keeper areas): 1,000 sqm

Beauval:
Bull outdoor: 4,600 sqm
Cow outdoor: 13,000 sqm
Indoor holdings (including visitor/keeper areas): 2,400sqm

A bull enclosure well under 1,000 sqm has to be a major consideration in this, surely? The combined total area of the entire Berlin elephant complex is only a little larger than Beauval's bull enclosure alone.

Rhinos
Berlin:
Indian rhino all outdoors put together: 4,000sqm
Indian rhino entire indoor building (including visitor/keeper/warty pig/tapir area): 2,200 sqm

Beauval:
Indian rhino both outdoors put together: 15,000sqm
Indian rhino entire indoor building (including visitor/keeper/deer/blackbuck area): 1,000sqm
White rhino outdoors: 10,100 sqm
White rhino indoors (including other antelope quarters, visitor/keeper areas): 900sqm

Takins
Berlin: 860 sqm
Beauval: 2200 sqm

Hippos
Berlin (entire area including indoors + viewing): 1800 sqm
Beauval (entire area including indoors + viewing): 2250 sqm

I know that some will say we are not comparing like for like, and that is a fair point - one is a city zoo, one is in the countryside. But then I actually checked how large they each are, and the results maybe aren't what you'd expect. Beauval is 326,000 sqm, and Berlin is 295,000 sqm.

I understand that there are mitigating factors in that construction is less easy and more expensive in a city zoo, and that Beauval probably has better financials, but it boils down to this. They have the same area (give or take), yet one zoo is giving their elephants 20,000sqm, and the other is giving them just over 5,000. For me, despite really liking Berlin in many respects, that sways it in Beauval's favour.

 

[twilighter]

Few words about the new Rhino Pagoda , which pay homage to the 19th century Pachyderm house. Not long ago in 2019 Berlin had this Rhino/Baird's Tapir house:



Today they have one of the most modern zoo facilities for Rhinos with plastic cushion roof designed to provide maximum natural light. 2/3 of the building is entirely dedicated to the off-show stables, but the biggest highlight for the visitor is the Underwater viewing.

They are four main exhibits - one for 2 Lowland Tapirs ( also part of the original Pachyderm house ) and three for 4 Indian Rhinos and 7 Visayan warty pigs.

I didn't know that two of the Rhinos need to be permanently inside. On my visit in 2023 I saw 3 rhinos outside - one in the first exhibit and two more in the last. Could be out of the ordinary case:





Here you can also see the tree big exhibits on the right side with likely one Rhino each:



Few more pictures:


The underwater rhino viewing is unique zoo experience.







Elephant building and most importantly the Elephant paddocks are low point for the zoo and they are not hide it. I must say tho that on most of my visit the Elephants are engaged in different activities and seem well taken care. Investing millions in the Tierpark Berlin groundbreaking facility for African elephants, Berlin probably don't want to repeat the mistake they did with closing two carnivore house simultaneously and choose to keep the city Elephants for now.