European (Tea)Cup - League C - Zoo Berlin vs Beauval

[twilighter]

A few more photos of Beauval:

(Creds @twilighter, @antonmuster)

(Pygmy hippo)

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(Common hippo, plus a better idea of the land area available to the hippos).

I understand the argument around the pygmy hippo exhibit, and agree that it is poor that such an exhibit was made from scratch recently, but I also believe that the worst in Beauval is still substantially better than the worst in Berlin, and that the best at Beauval is substantially better than Berlin's best. As for exhibit measurements for the species in common, it'll come as no surprise that Beauval is on top for most of them, but the degree to which this is the case might.

Elephants
Berlin:
Bull outdoor: 750 sqm
Cow outdoor: 3,200 sqm
Indoor holdings (including visitor/keeper areas): 1,000 sqm

Beauval:
Bull outdoor: 4,600 sqm
Cow outdoor: 13,000 sqm
Indoor holdings (including visitor/keeper areas): 2,400sqm

A bull enclosure well under 1,000 sqm has to be a major consideration in this, surely? The combined total area of the entire Berlin elephant complex is only a little larger than Beauval's bull enclosure alone.

Rhinos
Berlin:
Indian rhino all outdoors put together: 4,000sqm
Indian rhino entire indoor building (including visitor/keeper/warty pig/tapir area): 2,200 sqm

Beauval:
Indian rhino both outdoors put together: 15,000sqm
Indian rhino entire indoor building (including visitor/keeper/deer/blackbuck area): 1,000sqm
White rhino outdoors: 10,100 sqm
White rhino indoors (including other antelope quarters, visitor/keeper areas): 900sqm

Takins
Berlin: 860 sqm
Beauval: 2200 sqm

Hippos
Berlin (entire area including indoors + viewing): 1800 sqm
Beauval (entire area including indoors + viewing): 2250 sqm

I know that some will say we are not comparing like for like, and that is a fair point - one is a city zoo, one is in the countryside. But then I actually checked how large they each are, and the results maybe aren't what you'd expect. Beauval is 326,000 sqm, and Berlin is 295,000 sqm.

I understand that there are mitigating factors in that construction is less easy and more expensive in a city zoo, and that Beauval probably has better financials, but it boils down to this. They have the same area (give or take), yet one zoo is giving their elephants 20,000sqm, and the other is giving them just over 5,000. For me, despite really liking Berlin in many respects, that sways it in Beauval's favour.

Those are very interesting numbers @amur leopard, but you have been at the both zoos and know what they actually mean. Beauval just add extra new land and start built. Berlin is an institution entirely rebuild after two World Wars. To build new 13 000 sq m exhibit they first need to tare down some precious part of the cultural heritage not only of Berlin, but of whole Germany.

Also, you know what happenes at Beauval in May and June - the crowds are so big that you can literally not pass. On first of my visit they opened the zoo one hour earlier from 8, because of the crowds. I am happy that this zoo is so popular and getting stronger and stronger, but their alleys are not ready for 2 000 000 visitors. Same time Berlin welcomes 3 500 000. I am visiting Berlin every year, during different seasons and don't remember congestions, while the path between Asia and Australia at Beauval is a challenge. Correct me, if I am wrong please

 

[lintworm]

Those are very interesting numbers @amur leopard, but you have been at the both zoos and know what they actually mean. Beauval just add extra new land and start built. Berlin is an institution entirely rebuild after two World Wars. To build new 13 000 sq m exhibit they first need to tare down some precious part of the cultural heritage not only of Berlin, but of whole Germany.

Also, you know what happenes at Beauval in May and June - the crowds are so big that you can literally not pass. On first of my visit they opened the zoo one hour earlier from 8, because of the crowds. I am happy that this zoo is so popular and getting stronger and stronger, but their alleys are not ready for 2 000 000 visitors. Same time Berlin welcomes 3 500 000. I am visiting Berlin every year, during different seasons and don't remember congestions, while the path between Asia and Australia at Beauval is a challenge. Correct me, if I am wrong please

Zoo Berlin doesn't receive 3.5 million visitors. They artificially inflate their numbers by double counting aquarium visitors and make every annual pass holder count for an impossibly high number of visits. In reality Zoo Berlin receives around 2 million visitors.

 

[twilighter]

Zoo Berlin doesn't receive 3.5 million visitors. They artificially inflate their numbers by double counting aquarium visitors and make every annual pass holder count for an impossibly high number of visits. In reality Zoo Berlin receives around 2 million visitors.

Probably many Zoos inflate their numbers, overcounting the annual pass holders visits. Nevertheless, even if we talk of closer attendance numbers the difference between how Berlin and Beauval handle the crowds are still sensible. At the end of the day the discussion is about Hoofstock not visitors and I have nothing to say against Beauval Hoofstock exhibits, my point is that is easier for them to build huge Elephant facility alocating new undeveloped land.

 

[lintworm]

Probably many Zoos inflate their numbers, overcounting the annual pass holders visits. Nevertheless, even if we talk of closer attendance numbers the difference between how Berlin and Beauval handle the crowds are still sensible. At the end of the day the discussion is about Hoofstock not visitors and I have nothing to say against Beauval Hoofstock exhibits, my point is that is easier for them to build huge Elephant facility alocating new undeveloped land.

The number of zoos that overcount annual pass holders is actually dwindling, but irrelevant to the discussion. Similarly I don't see how crowd control adds anything meaningful to the discussion on which zoo is the better one for ungulates.

 

[twilighter]

To return on the point, few more sights and view points from Berlin:

Goat Mountain featuring Siberian Ibex, Golden Takin and Himalayan tahr








Deer Park with Vietnamese Sika, Pudu and Prince Alfred's Deer

Vietnamese Sika Deer


Prince Alfred's Deer




Pudu Exhibit

 

[twilighter]

Crossing the Lichtenstein bridge there is also a big area at the Upper part of the Zoo, where two less charming, but much more generous in space exhibits and also successful with breeding - open space African Savanna and Pampas are dedicated to Ungulates.

Greater Kudu / Blesbok/ Springbok exhibit








Pampas exhibit with Guanaco



This is the former Barasinga exhibit currently occupied by Przewalski's Horses

 

[SivatheriumGuy]

This is the former Barasinga exhibit currently occupied by Przewalski's Horses

Isn't that now the red kangaroo and emu exhibit?

 

[twilighter]

Isn't that now the red kangaroo and emu exhibit?

I remember seeing Horses there, but it could be that they moved the kangaroo there now. The kangaroos used to occupie the next exhibit ( former Serow ).

 

[twilighter]

The more forested area in the right corner of the Zoo fitting nicely for the inhabitants. This area will get a serious update soon.

Bongo / Red Duiker, Okapi / Yellow backed Duiker , Sable Antelope

 

[pipaluk]

The more forested area in the right corner of the Zoo fitting nicely for the inhabitants. This area will get a serious update soon.

Bongo / Red Duiker, Okapi / Yellow backed Duiker , Sable Antelope

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These exhibits are poor compared to the ones at Beauval for the same species

 

[twilighter]

These exhibits are poor compared to the ones at Beauval for the same species

They are definitely smaller in size, but I wouldn't call them poor. Bongo exhibit at Beauval is a piece of art, tho .

 

[pipaluk]

They are definitely smaller in size, but I wouldn't call them poor. Bongo exhibit at Beauval is a piece of art, tho .

Agreed they are not really poor as exhibits but Beauval's are significantly better

 

[CrashMegaraptor]

They are, and I'm somewhat surprised no one has bothered to mention them before you, or to provide a general overview of them - currently travelling myself, but if no one has beaten me to it I'll see what I can do tomorrow evening

If I remember correctly (it has been years), there were about four or five enclosures, primarily hoofstock, including mixed African and South American exhibits. I still recall my first visit back in around 2013 or so and seeing their Japanese Serow... a species that has since vanished from the collection, so I was very fortunate.

I wouldn't necessarily say they were flashy or anything, but they definitely served their purpose... nice, sizable mixed exhibits.

 

[snowleopard]

This particular match has been incredibly interesting to me, as occasionally on this site I've read comments from zoo nerds who all adore Berlin but are not always the biggest fans of Beauval. Occasionally there's comparisons to Pairi Daiza, as both that zoo and Beauval have been constructing new exhibits in a relentless fashion for ages and each has grown at a rapid pace that has exceeded just about any other zoos in Europe. Too fast, too soon?

When I glanced through the first few posts, I was convinced that Berlin would win as there's a lot of great exhibits there for hoofstock. The architecture and 'character' alone are stunning, but there's also some smallish exhibits and the whole elephant complex is an eyesore. The photos of Beauval make it appear to be stunning and this particular category seems like a real strength of the French zoo. I think that a 3-2 Beauval victory seems fair and that's what I went with.

 

[Kalaw]

On first of my visit they opened the zoo one hour earlier from 8, because of the crowds.

I don't believe this is only because of the crowds, and I also struggle to see how this is anything but a tremendous positive for the zoo. There is something very special about arriving at a zoo of this size in the early hours of the morning and having a full day to explore it, especially if, as I did, staying at one of the zoo's hotels, which are within ten minutes or so walking distance. I wish more zoos would adopt similarly generous summer opening times.

Which raises an interesting point - if Zoo Berlin merits condemnation for their newest major hoofstock exhibit being (although an otherwise very good exhibit) lacking in one key aspect, how much more condemnation should Beauval get for their newest hoofstock exhibit being the worst of its category in the whole zoo?

Personally, I don't think that's really a fair comparison. I haven't actually seen the Pygmy Hippo enclosure in person (I visited the summer before the Equatorial Dome opened), but from photos it strikes me as a mediocre enclosure, particularly due to the small land area, but ultimately a sufficient one. A large and deep pool (yes, I know they are less aquatic than Commons, but they do still swim regularly and this is important), a mix of substrates and if I am interpreting things correctly there appears to be some sort of offshow facility at the back for privacy, as well as of course two enclosures in terms of separation.

I think that the practice of locking animals as large as rhinos in stables as small as the ones in Berlin (small in terms of being sufficient for a rhino to spend their whole day, not relative to other rhino stables as they actually appear to be of a fairly high standard) is far worse. I think Beauval's pygmy hippo enclosure is better for the species in question than Berlin's rhino stables. Designing a mediocre enclosure that, whilst adequate, could be a lot better, doesn't quite strike me as irresponsible the same way that knowingly committing to an enclosure design that necessitates locking animals indoors does.

Of course, this isn't really a fair comparison either as Berlin's rhinos do get outdoor access. Which begs the question; does anyone know how often the rhinos rotate with regards to who gets to venture outdoors? I assume something like once a day?

Irrelevant to the discussion about the failings of newer enclosures as it is quite old, but that if 750 sqm is really the entirety of the bull elephant yard then I think that settles any of the very little uncertainty that remained about which collection I should vote for, as that truly is appalling. Judging by photos, it also strikes me as remarkably unenriching and unattractively brutalist. If anything, I am closer to 4-1 Beauval than 3-2 Berlin at the moment although I will most likely stick with 3-2 unless convinced otherwise.

 

[twilighter]

This particular match has been incredibly interesting to me, as occasionally on this site I've read comments from zoo nerds who all adore Berlin but are not always the biggest fans of Beauval. Occasionally there's comparisons to Pairi Daiza, as both that zoo and Beauval have been constructing new exhibits in a relentless fashion for ages and each has grown at a rapid pace that has exceeded just about any other zoos in Europe. Too fast, too soon?

When I glanced through the first few posts, I was convinced that Berlin would win as there's a lot of great exhibits there for hoofstock. The architecture and 'character' alone are stunning, but there's also some smallish exhibits and the whole elephant complex is an eyesore. The photos of Beauval make it appear to be stunning and this particular category seems like a real strength of the French zoo. I think that a 3-2 Beauval victory seems fair and that's what I went with.

Even as a Berlin's supporter, I must say that I am also nicely surprised

I love Beauval and their particular hoofstock collection and I prefer to discuss positive qualities of the zoo, rather than negative.

For me Berlin's Ungulates always have been a sourse of inspiration and I appreciate the way they try to challenge their shortcomings. I will keep my vote for Berlin with clear mind, but Beauval gaining popularity here is pleasant to see

I don't believe this is only because of the crowds, and I also struggle to see how this is anything but a tremendous positive for the zoo. There is something very special about arriving at a zoo of this size in the early hours of the morning and having a full day to explore it, especially if, as I did, staying at one of the zoo's hotels, which are within ten minutes or so walking distance. I wish more zoos would adopt similarly generous summer opening times.Personally, I don't think that's really a fair comparison. I haven't actually seen the Pygmy Hippo enclosure in person (I visited the summer before the Equatorial Dome opened), but from photos it strikes me as a mediocre enclosure, particularly due to the small land area, but ultimately a sufficient one. A large and deep pool (yes, I know they are less aquatic than Commons, but they do still swim regularly and this is important), a mix of substrates and if I am interpreting things correctly there appears to be some sort of offshow facility at the back for privacy, as well as of course two enclosures in terms of separation.

In that particular day in May 2023 that was clearly the case and was announced on the Zoo Wabpage

 

[Dassie rat]

I have used figures from Zootierliste and subtracted the animals found in both zoos. I have added points to animals only found in up to 10 ZTL collections.

Zoo Berlin: 35 + 1 = 36
Beauval: 20 + 0 = 20
I'm going to score this 3:2 to Zoo Berlin

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Irrelevant to the discussion about the failings of newer enclosures as it is quite old, but that if 750 sqm is really the entirety of the bull elephant yard then I think that settles any of the very little uncertainty that remained about which collection I should vote for, as that truly is appalling. Judging by photos, it also strikes me as remarkably unenriching and unattractively brutalist. If anything, I am closer to 4-1 Beauval than 3-2 Berlin at the moment although I will most likely stick with 3-2 unless convinced otherwise.

The bull yard at Berlin actually poses a very difficult question where eligibility is concerned by the letter of the rules it shouldn't be considered either way, as it is no longer occupied and this was true at the time this match commenced. However by the spirit of the rules I think there's an argument it should be considered as none of us knew yet that it was no longer occupied at the time the match commenced!

 

[lintworm]

The bull yard at Berlin actually poses a very difficult question where eligibility is concerned by the letter of the rules it shouldn't be considered either way, as it is no longer occupied and this was true at the time this match commenced. However by the spirit of the rules I think there's an argument it should be considered as none of us knew yet that it was no longer occupied at the time the match commenced!

It seems fair to still consider it valid to consider it, as none of us could have realistically known at the start of the match. So there is no one at fault.

Another question: for a continental category to what extent do marine fish count that live near shore of said continent in e.g. coral reefs.

 

[antonmuster]

Having seen both collections first-hand, I have to go 4-1 for Beauval. Regarding number and diversity of species Beauval did not leave me wanting for more so Berlin having an advantage here does not do much for me. Conversely I found most enclosures in Berlin unimaginative and lacking in ambition from an animal welfare, behavioral enrichment, and immersion point of view; many enclosures I found substandard and several problematic. Beaval on the other hand had a strong edge over Berlin in these respects with many interesting and unique enclosures.