European (Tea)Cup - League C - Zoo Berlin vs Burgers

Zoo Berlin vs Burgers - ECTOTHERMS

  • Zoo Berlin 5/0 Burgers

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Burgers 4/1 Zoo Berlin

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Burgers 5/0 Zoo Berlin

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .

TeaLovingDave

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Staff member
15+ year member
In this, the final match of League C, we find ourselves discussing two contenders which have already secured progression to the next round - however, the result of this match will still play a role in the future progression and fortunes of both collections, and as such it is still very much worth discussing and debating. The category at hand is ECTOTHERMS, and I expect this might well be a hotly-contended match all round!
 
Have visited Burgers' but not Berlin. For now, will be voting 3-2 Burgers'.

I understand that Berlin's aquarium is one of the most widely beloved zoo exhibits, but as I briefly touched on in the Stuttgart / Plzen thread, from what I know of it, I feel as though it may not appeal to my tastes. From what I have seen, it appears to be a rather repetitive and uninspiring row of tanks, at times even undersized for the inhabitants. The law of diminishing returns means that each fish, lizard or insect gets slightly less exciting than the last, and ultimately I feel as though I wouldn't enjoy it as much as its lengthy and rarity-packed species lists suggests I should. This is the same reason that, whilst both aquariums were open, I always thought Bristol had the best zoo aquarium in the UK rather than London despite being a fraction the size; it had fewer tanks, but what it did have was just more enjoyable (the tunnel tank with paddlefish and gars for instance) and that meant that I always got more out of it. I think this is a scaled down equivalent of the Berlin Aquarium versus Burgers' Ocean debate. One is an endless row of decent, but mostly unimaginative, and at times a little poor, tanks, that excels mainly for its charm and encyclopedic feel; the other is an unpredictable and endlessly entertaining selection of high-quality, thought-provoking displays.

At the Burgers' Ocean, there is a 3 million litre open ocean tank, which is so cleverly lit that it gives the deeply unsettling illusion of never ending, with sharks and groupers emerging out of the abyss. A terrifying, yet beautiful sight to behold. A 750,000 coral reef tank is just as impressive, even if I do aesthetically prefer smaller and more vibrant ones like Zürich or Brest - the sheer technical mastery at hand is quite something. There is a dark room with flashlightfish, a huge tank with barracudas and schooling fish, and a tunnel tank with several rarely kept rays including the endlessly entertaining eagle rays. Then there is the mudflat for Fiddler Crabs which is a level of genius which very few zoos can even approach, the Tropical Gars in the manatee pool, the free-ranging reptiles in both the Bush and the Mangrove, which can result in some very special encounters such as walking over a bridge hanging barely above a pool while anoles watch from the handrails!

It's an undeniably subjective affair, and predicting how much I would enjoy the Berlin Aquarium based on similar exhibits I have seen isn't the most effective method. :p But from what I know, I would take the innovation, technical mastery and awe-inspiring sightlines of Burgers' over anything at Berlin. Certainly this shouldn't be more than a 3-2 either way, but for me that 3-2 goes in favour of the Dutch side. Open to being persuaded otherwise. :)
 
From what I have seen, it appears to be a rather repetitive and uninspiring row of tanks, at times even undersized for the inhabitants

One is an endless row of decent, but mostly unimaginative, and at times a little poor, tanks, that excels mainly for its charm and encyclopedic feel

I see this allegation and raise the excellent central Crocodile Hall within the Aquarium at Zoo Berlin, which is located on the second floor and comprises a walkthrough exhibit with sizeable enclosures for Ganges Gharial and Giant Malaysian River Turtle on one side, and Spectacled Caiman and a few species of South American freshwater turtle (I can recall Yellow-spotted River Turtle off the top of my head, but believe there is at least one other) on the other, with numerous butterfly species also present.

Gharial

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Caiman

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Walkway

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Moreover, this hall is viewable from multiple levels - the ground floor area (otherwise containing the fish and marine invertebrate exhibits) contains underwater viewing windows into both the Gharial and Caiman exhibits.....

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....and the top floor of the Aquarium (otherwise containing the amphibian and invertebrate exhibits) also contains a viewing window onto the top levels of the hall, which as noted doubles-up as a butterfly exhibit:

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As regards this point:

Then there is the mudflat for Fiddler Crabs which is a level of genius which very few zoos can even approach.....the free-ranging reptiles in both the Bush and the Mangrove, which can result in some very special encounters such as walking over a bridge hanging barely above a pool while anoles watch from the handrails!

...mileages may vary, but I would contend that no matter how enjoyable or excellent Bush and Mangrove are, perhaps a dozen free-roaming species of reptile in total and fewer than half-a-dozen free-roaming species of invertebrate (butterflies excluded, as I don't know how many species are currently present in Mangrove) cannot be held up as making Burgers a superior collection in terms of invertebrate, reptile and amphibian taxa to Zoo Berlin.

I would *also* suggest that you are being rather unfair in claiming that the remainder of the Aquarium comprises nothing but a "endless row" of "repetitive and uninspiring....tanks", as there is much to recommend here too - I shall provide a second post with photographs taken from my own visits in 2019 and 2023 showing various highlights :) for now, I shall cite @lintworm in his must-see exhibit thread:

it is hard to find a better building to celebrate the diversity of ectotherm life from tuatara to jellyfish.
 

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Jellyfish

One of the more low-key highlights on the ground floor of the Aquarium at Zoo Berlin is a row of large tanks for a variety of jellyfish species - around six or seven species if memory serves me correctly, and one of the very best exhibits for the group I have seen. Moreover, unlike many zoological collections I believe that Zoo Berlin actually *breeds* their jellies

This also strikes me as a good opportunity to make the point (for the first time, in any case) that the quality of educational signage within the Aquarium is extremely good, and not merely (as is the case in many similar buildings or exhibit complexes) a bare-bones incomplete list of species displayed on prone-to-malfunction electronic screens:
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Coral Exhibits

Although admittedly nowhere as massive or technically-complex as the coral reef exhibit at Burgers, the collection of coral reef exhibits within the Aquarium are nonetheless attractive, spacious and display a wide variety of form and colour:

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Tuatara exhibit

Although not quite as good as the current or former exhibits for this species at Chester Zoo, this exhibit is spacious, attractive and very well-suited for the inhabitants:

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The exhibit is accompanied by a total of eight informational boards discussing a wide variety of subjects relating to the species, including taxonomic and morphological distinctiveness, habitat, the conservation pressures on the wild population, veterinary care of the animals at Berlin, and the history of the species at the zoo.

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Landscape Aquaria

A collection of large tanks displaying a range of freshwater, mangrove and reef species:

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Schooling Fish Tank

One of the largest tanks in the Aquarium, containing a wide variety of schooling fish along with bonnethead shark and several rays - unfortunately none of my photographs are any better than the small number already present within the gallery:

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Shark Tank

The largest tank in the aquarium, containing several species of shark along with barracuda, grouper and a variety of smaller fish species - unfortunately this photograph appears to be the only shot of the exhibit within the gallery, and I seem not to have taken any shots myself on my past two visits!

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Other Reptile Exhibit Highlights

Radiated Tortoise, Four-lined Plated Lizard and Madagascar Spiny Iguana:

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Blue Spiny Lizard, Blue Rock Lizard, Gila Monster:

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Rhinoceros Iguana

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I think the easiest way to break this down would be to cover them group by group...

FISH - Now, I'm gonna straight up say, I love the Berlin Aquarium... it's one of the best aquariums I've ever been to (and it puts all the UK equivalents I've visited to shame) and I think it has a very solid collection of fish, both marine and freshwater. However, Burger's Ocean is just absolutely magical, with so many massive, often themed, tanks and a variety of creatures on display. Their shark tank blows away Berlin's equivalent, and there's the novelty of the lanternfish exhibit too. It probably doesn't help Berlin's case that, as of making this post, the bottom floor is under repair. So, I give this a point to Burgers

REPTILES - There's a key difference here - for me, only one of the two is really memorable. Ask me to describe a reptile exhibit at Burgers and I legit couldn't. You could argue it's been a long time since I last went, and I'd counter I still remember Ocean quite well. Berlin has such a solid and varied collection of snakes and lizards, plus the tuatara, but the absolute highlight, as covered earlier, is the Gharial enclosure taking up the centre of the hall. It is just completely on another level. Easy point to Berlin for that alone.

AMPHIBIANS - OK, this is probably the "weakest" section, as Berlin's amphibian section isn't as particularly stand-out compared to the others, but since I don't recall anything in Burgers, Berlin gets it by default.

INVERTEBRATES - If I recall correctly, Burgers has a few invertebrates dotted around the underground path connecting Bush to Desert. The Mangrove house was still in its "old" stage when I went, so I can't speak for the fiddler/horseshoe crab collection they have now, but with the marine invertebrates in Ocean, I'm gonna say it's solid. The coral reef certainly seems more impressive than Berlin's. But for terrestrial invertebrates, Berlin has such a nice variety I can't ignore it. Sure, I'm not the biggest fan of bug houses, but there's a good amount to see, with some novel exhibits - is the tarantula bench still there? That got a bit of a laugh out of me, I must admit. Then there's also the jellyfish tank mentioned above, and I think that gives the point here in favour of Berlin.

So, ultimately, at 3-1, Berlin takes the victory here. I cannot ignore Burgers brilliant Ocean aquarium and all the species it has, so it isn't a whitewash, but my vote is for Berlin based on both its collection quantity, exhibit quality and, admittedly, sheer novelty.
 
It probably doesn't help Berlin's case that, as of making this post, the bottom floor is under repair. So, I give this a point to Burgers

it should be noted that a significant portion of the ground floor *is* still accessible - and I was careful to only highlight exhibits within the area in question in my above post :) to the best of my knowledge, the entirety of the cold-water corridor, the coral reef section connecting the two main corridors, and the various large tanks at the far end of the aquarium all remain accessible at the current time. I do not know whether the entire warm-water corridor is closed at present, but suspect this is likely.

As it happens, I will be revisiting in a few weeks and will be able to conclusively verify which exhibits are currently visible, which (given the fact that the result of this match won't have any impact on progression into the next round, and I anticipated the possibility some people might question the veracity of my information and argue that in the absence of proof the entire area should be discounted) is one reason I haven't set a fixed end-point for this match :D my general intention is to close the poll manually after three days, but re-open it once I have visited and have been able to report back.

AMPHIBIANS - OK, this is probably the "weakest" section, as Berlin's amphibian section isn't as particularly stand-out compared to the others, but since I don't recall anything in Burgers, Berlin gets it by default.

This area has recently reopened after refurbishment, so (pending my own report per the above remarks) it would be interesting to hear from anyone who has visited in the last year or so and has exhibit photographs - the presence of recent amphibian photographs in the gallery suggests that @SivatheriumGuy should be able to help!
 
To be fair, I'd have given the fish count to Burgers anyway, regardless of whether or not Berlin was fully open. Berlin does have an impressive fish collection, I just like Burgers more.
 
To be fair, I'd have given the fish count to Burgers anyway, regardless of whether or not Berlin was fully open. Berlin does have an impressive fish collection, I just like Burgers more.

Oh, indeed - I was just forestalling the risk anyone would misconstrue your remarks :)
 
This area has recently reopened after refurbishment, so (pending my own report per the above remarks) it would be interesting to hear from anyone who has visited in the last year or so and has exhibit photographs - the presence of recent amphibian photographs in the gallery suggests that @SivatheriumGuy should be able to help!
My biggest regret when it comes to my Berlin trip is how quickly I went through the Aquarium, I was running low in time and I wish I was able to really focus on the reptile and amphibian floors.
Despite this, I really enjoyed the amphibian enclosures. The collection is easily the best when it comes to this class I have yet to see and it's presented in very nicely designed terraria. I think I missed a section of the floor (I didn't reach the Chinese giant salamanders for example, and according to ZTL they are on-show) but every exhibit I got to see was big and lush, all surrounded with the charm the Aquarium itself has.
Sadly I can't specify much deeper and I checked my pictures but I don't have any when it comes to the enclosures. I'll go as far as to say that it wins against Burgers, a bold claim to make for someone who hasn't ever visited Burgers :p
 
My biggest regret when it comes to my Berlin trip is how quickly I went through the Aquarium, I was running low in time and I wish I was able to really focus on the reptile and amphibian floors.

Very recognizable for many of us. If you want to visit the building really thoroughly, you will quickly need several hours. The last time I was in Berlin (2013) I started at the Aquarium and did not enter the zoo before noon.
My next passage in Berlin will involve 2x 2 days, for both zoos. So that I can really visit every corner and see every exhibit.
 
I thought that, as I am voting against the consensus, I would explain my voting a bit here and why I think this match should be much closer than it currently is. I visited both zoos, and I really appreciate what both zoos have to offer in this category.

Let's start with Berlin. The aquarium building is huge, the species diversity (and number of rarities) is brilliant and there are definitely a number of rather good to excellent exhibits to be found, such as the landscape aquaria and the gharial exhibit. So I would not agree with anybody saying that the Berlin exhibits are (mostly) uninspiring or bad (even though I think that there are a couple of enclosures that do not suit their inhabitants well, but these are exceptions rather than the norm). However, for me personally, many of the Berlin exhibits, perfectly good and thoughtfully designed as they are, are a bit repetitive and not necessarily memorable and I do not think that there is any exhibit in this building that I would classify as 'the best of its kind'. I think this is really a matter of personal preference, but I would rather see a smaller number of exhibits that are among the best of their kind. And I think that many will agree with me here that none of Berlin's individual aquarium or terrarium exhibits reach the extreme highs that Burger's Zoo has to offer. However, I do highly appreciate Berlin's emphasis on ectotherms, and the aquarium building is probably the most well-rounded overview of the world's ectotherm fauna and has a rather good overall standard of exhibitry as well.

And that is where Burger's Zoo comes in. Yes, the collection of reptiles and amphibians is much, much smaller than what Berlin has to offer. But I'd argue that most ectotherm exhibits in this zoo are among the best of its kind, if not completely unique. The have only a couple of frog species (White-lipped tree frog and Montserrat whistling frog), but these choice species are held in Burgers' bush, which is (possibly together with some of the other giant tropical halls) the best frog exhibit in the world. The same goes for their free-ranging reptiles in the Bush and Mangrove, such as the Guadeloupe anole, another choice species. Even the side exhibits with the caimans and turtles in the Bush are very good, there are good terraria in the desert for cane toad, gila monsters and red diamond rattlesnake (only found in three European zoos) and the terraria in the Rimba for Asian water monitors and pythons are very large and among the best of their kind.

For invertebrates, Burger's Zoo is (for me personally) the best zoo in the world. There are many insect species in the Bush, (i.e. stingless bees) that play a large role in sustaining the ecodisplay (i.e. pollinating), but they are perhaps not very visible to the usual visitor. However, I do think that they are definitely worth mentioning and I have seen in an educative exhibit in the Safari section of Burgers' Zoo that there is a lot of scientific research going on in the Bush on the staggering invertebrate diversity of the rainforest house. The leaf-cutter ant display in the bush is also probably the best one I know, but still maybe a bit standard and the invertebrate exhibits with cave crickets and tarantulas in the Desert Tunnel section are nicely integrated into the house and well-designed, but also rather standard.

The same cannot be said about the Mangrove, which is probably the main selling point for Burger's Zoo when we are talking invertebrates. The crab enclosure is magnificent and completely unique, with fiddler crabs and horseshoe crabs living in a huge mudflat, that is (as far as I am aware, correct me if I am wrong) self-sustaining. Watching the crabs forage on the beautifully landscaped mudflat is probably the best invertebrate experience I have had. Upside down jellies and a number of fish species, such as four-eyed fish (which are found in Berlin as well in a nice exhibit, but the Burger's Zoo is exhibit is just something else). And let's not forget that the Mangrove is a fantastic butterfly house with a really nice collection of butterflies, one of the best ones I have seen. The architecture of the mangrove in itself and the mudflat is also fantastic in terms of design, sightlines and to me is just a true masterclass of zoo design. I have yet to see another zoo building that places such emphasis on invertebrates and combines this with such innovative, thoughtful and engaging design that represent 'the real thing' for invertebrates so well.

Burger's Mangrove (manatee exhibit) and Burger's bush (caiman exhibit) also hold a good number of freshwater fish species. Especially in the Mangrove, they are a very good sight through the huge viewing window into the manatee tank. The tropical gar in this tank is a choice species that is both impressive and very rare in zoos.

And let's talk about Burgers' Ocean as well. The design here is absolutely inspiring and very well thought out. The 750.000 coral reef is spectacular, the biggest in the world outside of Australia and an example of absolute technical mastery. I personally think that this exhibit alone will inspire the general visitor much more than any of the aquaria in Berlin Zoo. My (non-zoo/wildlife minded family) certainly agrees! The coral diversity (and general invertebrate diversity!) and succes with coral breeding in Burgers' Ocean is also a fantastic achievement worth mentioning. But the Ocean is about much more than just this tank. The first tank you enter is a lagoon tank that is brilliantly designed and the visitor path goes down along it to deeper waters. I really like the diverse species line up here with i.e. wobbegong and guitar rays, but the design and size of the exhibit really stand out. The 'reef canyon' exhibit with morays is also fantastically designed and as a visitor, you really get a feeling of looking into an underwater world instead of an aquarium tank. The completely dark lantern fish exhibit is a simple but (as far as I know) idea that is also very engaging for visitors. The main ocean tank (3 million liters of water) blows the much smaller one in Berlin out of the water, both in terms of size and design. Seeing the huge zebra sharks, grey reef sharks, blacktip sharks, blacktip reef sharks and giant groupers disappear in the seemingly endless tank through the giant viewing window is very impressive. The underwater tunnel with, among others, spotted eagle rays (for which Burger's Zoo is by far the main European breeder) is one of the nicest underwater tunnels I have seen and the fleeting rays above your head are a really nice experience. Burger's Ocean is easily my favorite zoo aquarium and the species diversity is perhaps not on the level of Berlin but I do not think that matters if both zoos have such a great collection. The design, innovation and sheer size and quality of the aquaria are in my opinion far, far superior in Burger's Zoo.

To be honest, it is not particularly close for me. I can think of only a single weakness for Burger's Zoo: their reptile and amphibian collection is not bad, but nowhere as diverse as the collection of Berlin. The exhibits in Arnhem are still second to none, but I would definitely have voted Berlin if it the category was only reptiles and amphibians. But the strengths of Burger's Zoo in the invertebrate and fish categories, both in terms of collection and top-of-the range exhibitry and innovation make this a no-brainer for me. There is no zoo that showcases its ectotherms in such a way. 3-2 Burger's Zoo for me!
 
I appreciate that overview very much, TLD. It is very hard to predict how much I would personally enjoy an exhibit that I haven't seen in person, and it seems I may have been being harsh with using such words as 'repetitive,' although I stand by 'uninspiring' (perhaps 'unmemorable' would be a little more appropriate), as I don't think there is anything that exceeds comparable such displays at other aquaria or reptile displays I have seen, in neither quality nor innovation. I'm also not sure that I am too convinced by the crocodile pools themselves in the Hall from photos, particularly the Gharials, nor that the main shark tank is anywhere near big enough for those massive Nurse Sharks, but it is hard to judge in both instances solely from photos. All in all the Aquarium looks like an excellent exhibit; the museum-like ambience really appeals to me, and the mostly good standard of enclosures on such a large scale is most commendable.

I think @Tiktaalik did a much better job than myself at explaining why I am voting Burgers' here. There truly is no zoo that showcases its ectotherms in such a way. So while I acknowledge it is close, I still think Burgers' clinches a 3-2 win here for the awe factor and technical mastery of its highlight areas.
 
As promised previously, if I discover that the state-of-affairs at Zoo Berlin is significantly different from that presented above when I visit in a few weeks, I shall re-open this match for a few days to allow people to reassess their scoring and arguments - but for now, both Berlin and Burgers can rest and await the next round of matches!

Zoo Berlin - 69/120 points - 57.500%
Burgers - 51/120 points - 42.500%
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