European (Tea)Cup - League D - Pairi Daiza vs Leipzig

[TeaLovingDave]

We get another shot at debating the category of SOUTH AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN (covering, as previously noted, the entirety of the Americas barring the continental USA and Canada rather than the strict letter of the category title) with two contenders who will make it a significantly more hard-fought match than the last time we came across this category!

Vote, discuss, debate and - if possible - persuade!

 

[twilighter]

Even with the good old Tapir/Capibara pond and the Black Howler/ Spider Monkey Walktrough exhibit this is not the strongest Pairi Daiza category. The bird collection is not to be underestimate, tho. The enormous support for the Spix’s Macaw project and some additional super rarities like St.Vincent Amazon keep the Belgium zoo in the battle.

Leipzig on the other side has a Tropical South American card in Gondwanaland with Giant Otters and Ocelot. And a whole South American zone with Pantanal, Pampas and Patagonia exhibits. The mixed Maned Wolf/Giant Anteater Pampas exhibit and the rare Chaco Pecaries instantly come to mind.

I am not sure what is the Tierra del Fuego exhibit status, but as a mammal lover I will give the lead to Leipzig 3:2.

 

[Jogy]

I know both zoos very well and it would be interesting to see what the result would be in 2 years from now when both the huge South America focussed Sanctuary at PD and Tera del Fuego exhibit are ready.

With the current status I'm also tending to a 3:2 lead for Leipzig with the same arguments that twilighter mentioned before...

 

[PossumRoach]

Call it radical but I am voting 4/1 for Leipzig. PD’s rare parrots are nice, but idk how to feel about the fact that most of them are sourced from the ACTP.

 

[Philipine eagle]

I agree with PossumRoach on this: although St Vincent Amazon and Spix' macaw are exceptional species, their aviaries are not.

And PD falls far short of Leipzig when it comes to Meso and South American species.

It's been a while since I was in Leipzig, but both Gondwanaland and Pantanal, Pampa und Patagonien are very impressive exhibits. We will have to wait and see what the currently under construction South American monstrous hall will become, but so far the sheer quality of the exhibits in Leipzig far exceeds that of PD. Right now there is nothing in PD that can compete with them.

So my vote will be 4/1 in favor of Leipzig.

 

[oflory]

I haven't been to Leipzig since 2015 and haven't been to Pairi Daiza at all. That said, from the gallery, and people's comments above, I do feel that Leipzig outstrips PD by quite a bit in this category. A 3/2 to Leipzig for me.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Anyone fancy trying to make the case for Pairi Daiza - or indeed, do more of those voting 4:1 for Leipzig fancy explaining why they have voted more heavily?

 

[lintworm]

Anyone fancy trying to make the case for Pairi Daiza - or indeed, do more of those voting 4:1 for Leipzig fancy explaining why they have voted more heavily?

I think that Pairi Daiza really has very little to show for itself in this category. The most memorable is the lowland tapir & giant anteater enclosure with the stream and mill in it. But even there the land part isn't all to convincing and in a recent video they showed that capybara moved from there to the children's zoo.... There are probably some S-American bird species in the large cathedral aviary, but I struggle to remember... For the rest it is some generic aviaries in Oasis, the 2 rare macaws in a glass building in which it is terrible to get a proper view. A fine squirrel monkey walkthrough. And then I remember an undersized aquarium tank in their aquarium for pacu etc. and some enclosures in Mersus Emergo for reptiles.

Compare that to Leipzig which has a really nice flamingo aviary, with multiple other S-American bird species. The rest of the S-American zone is more standard, but still good enclosures for Chacoan peccary etc. The renovated aquarium has a large and very nice looking S-American tank (and probably more, but I haven't visited the new version yet). And then there is Gondwanaland, which is certainly not my favourite rainforest exhibit, but the giant otter exhibit is one I really like and the other S-American exhibits are fine, if maybe a bit boring.

Overall Leipzig just has a lot more of excellence than Pairi Daiza, whose only selling points is rare parrots and tapirs in a nice setting. So I feel comfortable with a 4-1 here, as I don't think it is close at all.

 

[twilighter]

In addition to what @lintworm discribed there are two more unique for Europe species in the Oasis building - St Vincent and St Lucia Amazons.

I am close to switch my vote to 4:1 as well. This is most likely the worst possible Continental challenge for Pairi Daiza. The multimillion commitment for Spix’s Macaw definitely deserves a point.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

This seems pretty well decided but, having not visited Pairi Daiza myself, I'm going to give the place some credit for their Neotropical parrot breeding and go 3/2 Leipzig.

~Thylo

 

[lintworm]

This seems pretty well decided but, having not visited Pairi Daiza myself, I'm going to give the place some credit for their Neotropical parrot breeding and go 3/2 Leipzig.

~Thylo

Honest question, have they actually ever bred one of these rare parrots. I believe not and the the young Spix macaws that were raised came from ACTP if I remember correctly...

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Honest question, have they actually ever bred one of these rare parrots. I believe not and the the young Spix macaws that were raised came from ACTP if I remember correctly...

If you are referring to the birds depicted in this photograph.....

...they would have had to arrive at Pairi Daiza very young indeed, as IIRC I saw them at the collection a month before that photograph was posted, and only about 3.5 weeks after they hatched.

Which doesn't exactly disprove that they hatched at ACTP, but certainly makes the timespan somewhat tight!

 

[lintworm]

If you are referring to the birds depicted in this photograph.....

...they would have had to arrive at Pairi Daiza very young indeed, as IIRC I saw them at the collection a month before that photograph was posted, and only about 3.5 weeks after they hatched.

Which doesn't exactly disprove that they hatched at ACTP, but certainly makes the timespan somewhat tight!

I found the discussion on them on a Belgian zoo forum (with info from a Facebook group, but I cannot find the original source atm). These birds indeed came from ACTP at a very young age as part of the 14 animals which arrived in August 2022.

 

[remar]

One Leipzig flaw, that wasn't mentioned yet, is their use of Californian sea lions, within their South American area. Although i'm still comfortable with a clear Leipzig win in this category (4:1). South America is probably the best of the three continents at Gondwanaland.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

One Leipzig flaw, that wasn't mentioned yet, is their use of Californian sea lions, within their South American area. Although i'm still comfortable with a clear Leipzig win in this category (4:1). South America is probably the best of the three continents at Gondwanaland.

The species in question ranges throughout the Pacific coastline of Mexico, so is entirely relevant to the category in any case given the range of the two sister taxa within Zalophus, I wouldn't be surprised if even this range is relictual as a matter of fact!

 

[remar]

Fair point @TeaLovingDave

It fits the category. But for the thing that Leipzig wants to show with them (Tierra del Fuego) they are a misplacement ever since they acquired them.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Fair point @TeaLovingDave

It fits the category. But for the thing that Leipzig wants to show with them (Tierra del Fuego) they are a misplacement ever since they acquired them.

Oh, definitely - I just wanted to forestall the risk that anyone who had based their vote on the presence of the species misinterpreted your comment and thought it was ineligible!

 

[Kalaw]

Oh, definitely - I just wanted to forestall the risk that anyone who had based their vote on the presence of the species misinterpreted your comment and thought it was ineligible!

Even if the sea lions were ineligible, would it still be possible to take them into account? I believe it should, as in a geographically arranged zoo, their presence detracts from the authenticity and accuracy of the display; thus impacting how successful the zoo was in displaying and evoking the category in question. So long as the geo-zone in question is category-relevant, of course.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Even if the sea lions were ineligible, would it still be possible to take them into account? I believe it should, as in a geographically arranged zoo, their presence detracts from the authenticity and accuracy of the display; thus impacting how successful the zoo was in displaying and evoking the category in question. So long as the geo-zone in question is category-relevant, of course.

I think so, on the basis that you'd be judging the exhibit complex and enclosure quality rather than the species. Its certainly a bit of a poser, and potentially the sort of thing that might well arise in future matches.

 

[lintworm]

Even if the sea lions were ineligible, would it still be possible to take them into account? I believe it should, as in a geographically arranged zoo, their presence detracts from the authenticity and accuracy of the display; thus impacting how successful the zoo was in displaying and evoking the category in question. So long as the geo-zone in question is category-relevant, of course.

Given that said sea lion enclosure is still under construction and the sea lions are still in the "old zoo", it doesn't matter anyway for this competition.