European (Tea)Cup - League D - Pairi Daiza vs Plzen

[TeaLovingDave]

The Plzen issue:
- Several small carnivores in shoeboxes (genets & slender mongoose come to mind).

I feel quite surprised myself to vote for Plzen with their atrocious enclosures for hausa genet, slender mongoose and ring-tailed vontsira.

You definitely won't get any disagreement from me about the Slender Mongoose exhibit, barring any recent changes neither of us are aware of; however I think you are somewhat exaggerating how small the exhibit for Hausa Genet is, and I'd definitely not call it "atrocious":

We've differed on the vontsira exhibit in the past, partially because you disbelieve my assertion that they do have outdoor access but as the Narrow-striped Boky in the neighbouring exhibit has now passed away, and the two exhibits are (theoretically at least) able to be linked, I wonder if anyone has visited recently enough to be able to give up-to-date information about the status of this exhibit?

Pairi Daiza has some pretty good enclosures too. Their puma enclosure is far superior to the cat enclosures in Plzen and the expanded snow leopard exhibit is quite attractive, as is the cheetah exhibit. I suppose the binturong are also fine in their weird mix with bharal, but they have trees. I am just not a fan of most others. The Steller's sea lion exhibit is great at first sight, but the actual swimming room is quite limited with all the rock work. And there are faults to be found in most other exhibits as well.

Another example which comes to mind is the fact that when their last giant otter died and their exhibit - which for a long time was one of the very worst enclosures at the zoo full stop, let alone for a category species - became vacant, they promptly shoehorned in Smooth-coated Otter, for which it is only *marginally* better suited rather than spending any time, thought or some of their plentiful money to either a) obtain a species for which the exhibit would be appropriate or b) redevelop the exhibit whatsoever.

As such, they now have multiple Smooth-coated Otter in what is still one of the worst enclosures at the zoo

On the subject of the Steller's Sealion - I believe that the same applies to both the walrus and polar bear exhibits, doubtless due to the same reasons as those I mentioned to @Lafone above.... which all once again sums up one of the major issues with Pairi Daiza; they have access to a ridiculous amount of money with which to build excellent and world-class exhibits, but deliberately choose to build exhibits which are limited in size, flash-over-substance, often provide the inhabitants with scanty area to escape from view, and which (above all else) feel like they are specifically designed to maximise the chance of making an even more ridiculous amount of money.

Or as @amur leopard put it - Pairi Daiza is "a zoo which very evidently has the means to make brilliant living situations for their animals and yet, again and again, manages to avoid doing so."

Leads me to ask people who have visited - is it hard to find your way around PD or is the navigation and signposting sufficient to identify the animals you want to see? I do factor this into a rating as in order to appreciate a thing you have to be able to find it.

It can be pretty confusing, yeah - last time I visited there were also periods of time during the day when they temporarily closed-off paths or made them one-way only, which rather added to the confusion!

overall the initatives of Plzen are not comparable to the size and variety of projets at Pairi Daiza Foundation with multiple of them focussing on carnivores.

Given the fact that the bulk of their "conservation" spending on carnivores comprises outright greenwashing - the massive amount of money paid to China each year for their Giant Pandas - I would contend this is less impressive that you claim!

If i remember it correctly they already had five American black bears. And as this wasn't enough they made an unnecessary import of ten animals from America to put them on display at the same exhibit with the already present bears. @lintworm already mentioned the result of this.

And for the reference of those unfamiliar, here is the exhibit in question - it would be a very good exhibit for two or three bears, but it is far too small for over a dozen bears! Moreover, as I alluded above, the visitor path surrounds the exhibit on all sides, meaning the only way the bears can escape view is to go indoors:

 

[Lafone]

You definitely won't get any disagreement from me about the Slender Mongoose exhibit, barring any recent changes neither of us are aware of; however I think you are somewhat exaggerating how small the exhibit for Hausa Genet is, and I'd definitely not call it "atrocious":

We've differed on the vontsira exhibit in the past, partially because you disbelieve my assertion that they do have outdoor access but as the Narrow-striped Boky in the neighbouring exhibit has now passed away, and the two exhibits are (theoretically at least) able to be linked, I wonder if anyone has visited recently enough to be able to give up-to-date information about the status of this exhibit?



Another example which comes to mind is the fact that when their last giant otter died and their exhibit - which for a long time was one of the very worst enclosures at the zoo full stop, let alone for a category species - became vacant, they promptly shoehorned in Smooth-coated Otter, for which it is only *marginally* better suited rather than spending any time, thought or some of their plentiful money to either a) obtain a species for which the exhibit would be appropriate or b) redevelop the exhibit whatsoever.

As such, they now have multiple Smooth-coated Otter in what is still one of the worst enclosures at the zoo

On the subject of the Steller's Sealion - I believe that the same applies to both the walrus and polar bear exhibits, doubtless due to the same reasons as those I mentioned to @Lafone above.... which all once again sums up one of the major issues with Pairi Daiza; they have access to a ridiculous amount of money with which to build excellent and world-class exhibits, but deliberately choose to build exhibits which are limited in size, flash-over-substance, often provide the inhabitants with scanty area to escape from view, and which (above all else) feel like they are specifically designed to maximise the chance of making an even more ridiculous amount of money.

Or as @amur leopard put it - Pairi Daiza is "a zoo which very evidently has the means to make brilliant living situations for their animals and yet, again and again, manages to avoid doing so."



It can be pretty confusing, yeah - last time I visited there were also periods of time during the day when they temporarily closed-off paths or made them one-way only, which rather added to the confusion!



Given the fact that the bulk of their "conservation" spending on carnivores comprises outright greenwashing - the massive amount of money paid to China each year for their Giant Pandas - I would contend this is less impressive that you claim!



And for the reference of those unfamiliar, here is the exhibit in question - it would be a very good exhibit for two or three bears, but it is far too small for over a dozen bears! Moreover, as I alluded above, the visitor path surrounds the exhibit on all sides, meaning the only way the bears can escape view is to go indoors:

On the bear enclosure that strikes me as such a shame. It’s a big well laid out space with varied terrain and a good looking pond but 12 bears is obviously too much with a death. Such a striking enclosure too. Lots of PD looks amazing and it has some great species but while keeping an eye out for more comments I’m currently swayed to Plzn 3/2 as it’s hard to vote for a zoo to win where animals appear to be at some risk just so people can see them.

I’m actually fine with much of the theming - I quite like the dramatic look and it’s clear there’s a bunch of money behind it. But the stock issues highlighted with bears and otters that’s hard to get past, for me.

 

[pipaluk]

You definitely won't get any disagreement from me about the Slender Mongoose exhibit, barring any recent changes neither of us are aware of; however I think you are somewhat exaggerating how small the exhibit for Hausa Genet is, and I'd definitely not call it "atrocious":

We've differed on the vontsira exhibit in the past, partially because you disbelieve my assertion that they do have outdoor access but as the Narrow-striped Boky in the neighbouring exhibit has now passed away, and the two exhibits are (theoretically at least) able to be linked, I wonder if anyone has visited recently enough to be able to give up-to-date information about the status of this exhibit?



Another example which comes to mind is the fact that when their last giant otter died and their exhibit - which for a long time was one of the very worst enclosures at the zoo full stop, let alone for a category species - became vacant, they promptly shoehorned in Smooth-coated Otter, for which it is only *marginally* better suited rather than spending any time, thought or some of their plentiful money to either a) obtain a species for which the exhibit would be appropriate or b) redevelop the exhibit whatsoever.

As such, they now have multiple Smooth-coated Otter in what is still one of the worst enclosures at the zoo

On the subject of the Steller's Sealion - I believe that the same applies to both the walrus and polar bear exhibits, doubtless due to the same reasons as those I mentioned to @Lafone above.... which all once again sums up one of the major issues with Pairi Daiza; they have access to a ridiculous amount of money with which to build excellent and world-class exhibits, but deliberately choose to build exhibits which are limited in size, flash-over-substance, often provide the inhabitants with scanty area to escape from view, and which (above all else) feel like they are specifically designed to maximise the chance of making an even more ridiculous amount of money.

Or as @amur leopard put it - Pairi Daiza is "a zoo which very evidently has the means to make brilliant living situations for their animals and yet, again and again, manages to avoid doing so."



It can be pretty confusing, yeah - last time I visited there were also periods of time during the day when they temporarily closed-off paths or made them one-way only, which rather added to the confusion!



Given the fact that the bulk of their "conservation" spending on carnivores comprises outright greenwashing - the massive amount of money paid to China each year for their Giant Pandas - I would contend this is less impressive that you claim!



And for the reference of those unfamiliar, here is the exhibit in question - it would be a very good exhibit for two or three bears, but it is far too small for over a dozen bears! Moreover, as I alluded above, the visitor path surrounds the exhibit on all sides, meaning the only way the bears can escape view is to go indoors:

Given so much has been made by several posters regarding PD's bad exhibits and animal welfare ( not just by yourself I must add) can I ask if there are any more photos of the 'shoebox' small carnivore 'exhibits' at Plzen? I certainly would not give the exhibit in this post a description of anything better than poor and I'm sure if it was at Hemsley , South Lakes, or any other UK zoo regularly criticised for its enclosures it would be called as terrible!!
Just think this area appears to be ignored regarding Plzen for some reason by those voting for it!!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Just think this area appears to be ignored regarding Plzen for some reason by those voting for it!!

I'd argue that (as I said at the very start of this thread) this is a category in which *neither* collection excels, that this is already held as received wisdom where Plzen is concerned, and that hence the crux of the debate for those of us who think Plzen scrapes ahead comes down to demonstrating the failings of Pairi Daiza which have not yet reached "received wisdom" status and arguing that these failings are worse than those at Plzen, and that the best exhibits at Plzen for the category are better than the best at Pairi Daiza.

So, not ignoring the matter whatsoever and I never said that the genet exhibit was *good* by any means, merely that it is nowhere near as bad as @lintworm painted it; one of the genets is visible in the photograph as it happens, which provides a pretty decent demonstration of scale. Incidentally, when looking for other photographs in order to answer your other point (see below) I found this one which I took myself of the second genet exhibit, which IIRC is immediately next to (and to the left of) the one previously posted:

can I ask if there are any more photos of the 'shoebox' small carnivore 'exhibits' at Plzen?

There aren't many other photographs of *any* of the three exhibits cited by @lintworm in the gallery, but here goes:

This is the exhibit for Slender Mongoose, which is 100% the worst carnivore exhibit at the zoo and (unlike the genet exhibit) definitely merits the "shoebox" epithet in my opinion; the first photograph is 15 years old, and the second (taken by myself) was taken in 2017, but I honestly can't recall how much (if at all) it has changed in the interim. I believe it contains two non-breeding animals at present

As regards the vontsira exhibit - which they currently share with Lac Alaotra Gentle Lemur - I can't find any photographs of the indoor exhibit which aren't close-up shots of the animals alone; however there is a single photograph of the outdoor exhibit from about 10 years ago:

 

[Lafone]

Given so much has been made by several posters regarding PD's bad exhibits and animal welfare ( not just by yourself I must add) can I ask if there are any more photos of the 'shoebox' small carnivore 'exhibits' at Plzen? I certainly would not give the exhibit in this post a description of anything better than poor and I'm sure if it was at Hemsley , South Lakes, or any other UK zoo regularly criticised for its enclosures it would be called as terrible!!
Just think this area appears to be ignored regarding Plzen for some reason by those voting for it!!

Great point to raise (I did have a look at them too) and one of the reasons I went 3/2 vs anything else as there are some clearly not so good points (and mongoose wise I'd love to admire them in a much improved space, they deserve it!). Good to see some more illustration.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Additional to the above - I managed to find a Google Streetview shot from 2009 of the outdoor exhibits for the lemur/vontsira mix and the old lemur/boky mix:



I don't recall offhand whether the left or the right exhibit is the vontsira/lemur exhibit; the other will be the old lemur/boky mix which (after the death of the last boky recently) will now either be:

a) lemur only or
b) also vontsira/lemur

As such, I repeat my prior request for further information/clarification - as the Narrow-striped Boky in the neighbouring exhibit has now passed away, and the two exhibits are (theoretically at least) able to be linked, I wonder if anyone has visited recently enough to be able to give up-to-date information about the status of this exhibit?

 

[komodoskar]

I'd argue that (as I said at the very start of this thread) this is a category in which *neither* collection excels, that this is already held as received wisdom where Plzen is concerned, and that hence the crux of the debate for those of us who think Plzen scrapes ahead comes down to demonstrating the failings of Pairi Daiza which have not yet reached "received wisdom" status and arguing that these failings are worse than those at Plzen, and that the best exhibits at Plzen for the category are better than the best at Pairi Daiza.

So, not ignoring the matter whatsoever and I never said that the genet exhibit was *good* by any means, merely that it is nowhere near as bad as @lintworm painted it; one of the genets is visible in the photograph as it happens, which provides a pretty decent demonstration of scale. Incidentally, when looking for other photographs in order to answer your other point (see below) I found this one which I took myself of the second genet exhibit, which IIRC is immediately next to (and to the left of) the one previously posted:

View attachment 762905




There aren't many other photographs of *any* of the three exhibits cited by @lintworm in the gallery, but here goes:

This is the exhibit for Slender Mongoose, which is 100% the worst carnivore exhibit at the zoo and (unlike the genet exhibit) definitely merits the "shoebox" epithet in my opinion; the first photograph is 15 years old, and the second (taken by myself) was taken in 2017, but I honestly can't recall how much (if at all) it has changed in the interim. I believe it contains two non-breeding animals at present

View attachment 762906

As regards the vontsira exhibit - which they currently share with Lac Alaotra Gentle Lemur - I can't find any photographs of the indoor exhibit which aren't close-up shots of the animals alone; however there is a single photograph of the outdoor exhibit from about 10 years ago:

When I visited in 2023 that former Slender mongoose enclosure was occupied by some species of jird. And the slender mongooses instead occupied a very similar enclosure to the one for the Hausa genet along that same corridor. Unfortunately I don't have pictures to illustrate.

 

[lintworm]

So, not ignoring the matter whatsoever and I never said that the genet exhibit was *good* by any means, merely that it is nowhere near as bad as @lintworm painted it; one of the genets is visible in the photograph as it happens, which provides a pretty decent demonstration of scale. Incidentally, when looking for other photographs in order to answer your other point (see below) I found this one which I took myself of the second genet exhibit, which IIRC is immediately next to (and to the left of) the one previously posted:

The genets have moved to the other side of the corridor and now only have a single exhibit which is a box of maybe 2X1 metres and 2.5 metres tall without too much furnishing. That is what I call atrocious. There is basically no space for the 2 animals to get away from each other and hardly anything of interest to these curious animals in terms of sensory input...

This is the exhibit for Slender Mongoose, which is 100% the worst carnivore exhibit at the zoo and (unlike the genet exhibit) definitely merits the "shoebox" epithet in my opinion; the first photograph is 15 years old, and the second (taken by myself) was taken in 2017, but I honestly can't recall how much (if at all) it has changed in the interim. I believe it contains two non-breeding animals at present

This enclosure now holds Smith's bush squirrel. The slender mongoose is now in one of the 2 former hausa genet boxes, which is even more unsuitable for a terrestrial animal and hardly better than this thing, where at least there was natural light.

As regards the vontsira exhibit - which they currently share with Lac Alaotra Gentle Lemur - I can't find any photographs of the indoor exhibit which aren't close-up shots of the animals alone; however there is a single photograph of the outdoor exhibit from about 10 years ago:

The vontsira might indeed have access to 1 outdoor cage (but certainly not 2), though I never saw him use it. He shares with ring-tailed lemurs IIRC and the only thing I see him do is pace in front of the window.

Luckily all 3 species seem to be represented only by elderly individuals and are on the phase-out list in Plzen, so that is a bright spot...

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The genets have moved to the other side of the corridor and now only have a single exhibit which is a box of maybe 2X1 metres and 2.5 metres tall without too much furnishing. That is what I call atrocious. There is basically no space for the 2 animals to get away from each other and hardly anything of interest to these curious animals in terms of sensory input...

Is that the same exhibit as the first one I posted (the photograph taken by @Green_mamba in July 2024) or yet another one? I wasn't aware you'd visited more recently than that!

The vontsira might indeed have access to 1 outdoor cage (but certainly not 2), though I never saw him use it. He shares with ring-tailed lemurs IIRC and the only thing I see him do is pace in front of the window.

I saw him outside in 2019 and 2022 - the former being why we ended up differing on this point during the last Cup

Luckily all 3 species seem to be represented only by elderly individuals and are on the phase-out list in Plzen, so that is a bright spot...

Definitely agree with you there its a big pity that more wasn't done with the mongooses in particular, I think.

 

[HOMIN96]

I wonder if anyone has visited recently enough to be able to give up-to-date information about the status of this exhibit?

The left aviary is now for red ruffed lemurs with possible rotation of white-headed brown lemurs, the right aviary is now for Crowned lemurs only

Full layout of the daylight part:

Left side:
Common brown + radiated tortoise
Red-bellied + ring tailed vontsira
Black lemur females

Back side:
Black lemur males
Lac Alaotra bamboo

Right side:
Crowned lemur (both enclosures)

There is basically no space for the 2 animals to get away from each other

"Luckily" the more ancient one of the genets has passed away since.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

It should be noted that this match was deadlocked at exactly 80/80 points apiece (once the invalid 5/0 vote for Pairi Daiza was discounted) until 10 seconds before the match ended; having left it as long as possible in the hope a tiebreak vote would come along, I altered my vote to break the deadlock in the direction which would alter the overall percentages the least (I also considered changing my vote to a 5/0 Pairi to make it ineligible, but if I calculated things correctly this would have thrown the average out more).

I very much hope I don't have to do so again!

Pairi Daiza - 79/160 points - 49.375%
Plzen - 81/160 points - 50.625%

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Actually, I've just thought of a better solution - my tiebreak vote stands as regards Plzen being the official victor of the match, BUT the match percentages which will be carried over for the purposes of determining progression will revert to the 50% apiece which the two collections earned during the voting process

Pairi Daiza - 80/160 points - 50.000%
Plzen - 80/160 points - 50.000%

 

[snowleopard]

Actually, I've just thought of a better solution - my tiebreak vote stands as regards Plzen being the official victor of the match, BUT the match percentages which will be carried over for the purposes of determining progression will revert to the 50% apiece which the two collections earned during the voting process

Pairi Daiza - 80/160 points - 50.000%
Plzen - 80/160 points - 50.000%

I think that's a fair compromise. It's amazing at how close both the Pairi Daiza vs. Plzen and Berlin vs. London/Whipsnade matches have been. We could have basically just tossed a coin in both instances, but then of course there wouldn't have been the terrific, good-natured debates.