European (Tea)Cup - League D - Pairi Daiza vs Stuttgart

[TeaLovingDave]

This time round, we will be taking a look at two of the most visually distinct of the European zoological collections competing within the Cup - Pairi Daiza and Wilhelma.

Both, I feel, have a lot to offer within the category at hand - MISCELLANEOUS MAMMALS. But which has the edge?

I think this one has the potential to be another hotly-debated match!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I reckon the excellent quality of the recent Australia house at Wilhelma, along with various other little odds and ends scattered throughout the collection, earn it a fairly solid win over Pairi Daiza; although the Belgian collection doesn't exactly have a small array of category species and exhibits for same, the quality is definitely a step below that found over in Germany.

As such, a preliminary 4:1 vote for Stuttgart methinks, with the caveat that I am happy to alter my vote if convinced otherwise.

 

[Philipine eagle]

Can you please specify again what mammals exactly you understand by this, I lost it for a moment: all mammals apart from carnivores and ungulates? Primates f.e., are these a specific category?

 

[pipaluk]

Can you please specify again what mammals exactly you understand by this, I lost it for a moment: all mammals apart from carnivores and ungulates? Primates f.e., are these a specific category?

Primates are a separate category so this one applies to any mammal that doesn't qualify for the 3 you mention. Elephants have been included with ungulates so are not included in Misc mammals

 

[Kalaw]

I haven't visited either, but here are species lists for both zoos per ZTL.

Pairi Daiza:
Alpine Marmot
Azara's Agouti
Bear Cuscus
Black-tailed Prairie Dog
Capybara
Common Wombat
Eastern Grey Kangaroo
Egyptian Fruit Bat
Eurasian Beaver
Giant Anteater
Indian Crested Porcupine
Indian Flying Fox
Large Hairy Armadillo
Linnaeus' Two-toed Fox
Long-nosed Potoroo
Lyle's Flying Fox
Naked Mole-rat
New Guinea Short-beaked Echidna
North American Porcupine
Northern Koala
Northern Luzon Giant Cloud Rat
Pallas' Squirrel
Patagonian Mara
Red Kangaroo
Red-necked Wallaby
Siberian Flying Squirrel
Sugar Glider
Swamp Wallaby
Tasmanian Devil

Total taxa: 29

Wilhelma:
American Beaver
Belanger's Treeshrew
Brushtail Possum
Cactus Deeermouse
Common Rock Hyrax
Eastern Grey Kangaroo
Eastern Quoll
Eurasian Harvest Mouse
Flower's Gerbil
Goodfellow's Tree-kangaroo
Kowari
Large Flying Fox
Linnaues' Two-toed Sloth
Long-nosed Potoroo
Naked Mole-rat
Northern Koala
Paraguayan Tamandua
Patagonian Mara
Quokka
Rock Cavy
Round-eared Sengi
Rufous Bettong
Seba's Short-tailed Bat
Seurat's Spiny Mouse
Southern Three-banded Armadillo
Spinifex Hopping Mouse
Sugar Glider
Tasmanian Brushtail Possum
Tasmanian Wombat
Western Brush-tailed Bettong

Total taxa: 30

So, overall, Wilhelma leads by a single taxa, but at species level the two are actually equal, with Wilhelma appearing to have both non-subspecific Brushtail Possum and the Golden / Tasmanian subspecies. That margin is far finer than I had expected, but Wilhelma arguably has a more interesting collection with the aforementioned possums, as well as the Quokkas, Kowaris, and even some interesting small rodents such as the Flower's Gerbils. That said, Pairi's collection is not to be slept on with the echidnas, wombats, flying squirrels and Tasmanian Devils.

Having not visited either collection in person, I cannot say too much about either collection's quality, although I would say that a bucket list exhibit of mine is the Crypt at Pairi Daiza, a free-flight hall for bats underneath an 18th Century Abbey, and I am also fascinated by what appears to be a mixed species enclosure with kangaroos and Tasmanian Devils, and some other nice-looking enclosures throughout.

This seems to be a very close match to me with both zoos being deserving of a result here, so for now I will be voting 3-2 Pairi Daiza, in part to buck the trend, and in part because if any of the Stuttgart voters are hence prompted to persuade me otherwise, it would generate some discussion.

 

[pipaluk]

Thanks for posting the species list. This looks like being a close match and hopefully there will be some discussion. I haven't been to either so will leave to those who have. I initially voted 3-2 Stuttgart but this could change 3-2 the other way easily.

 

[lintworm]

While the number of species kept is equal, that is where the similarities end.

The best way to illustrate that is the Australian complex at each zoo.

Pairi Daiza is still mostly about the show and impressing visitors. Both have a sizable collection of Australasian mammals, but the husbandry record for multiple species at Pairi Daiza is dismal at best, including koala and their dorcopsis. They also have a low success rate with wombat and bear cuscus. The enclosure offerings are more culturally themed and for dorcopsis and koala were very clearly unsuitable. The most impressing thing botanically is a grove of tree ferns, which seems mainly imported to be the biggest tree fern grove in Europe. Given that they were planted without appropriate shading, they quickly didn't look great anymore...

The Wilhelma on the other hand designed the Terra Australis house with Australian habitats in mind and less the visitor experience. There have been a lot of complaints that their nocturnal sections are too dark. But if you spend some time there, it isn't dark at all and most enclosures are among the larger ones nocturnal houses can offer. A lot of time was also spent on getting the right plants. Wilhelma is also a botanical garden, so they spent quite some effort in importing the right plants from Australia to be able to recreate the botany of a national park where koala actually occur. This shows mainly in the indoor koala area. The husbandry success is also significantly higher in the Wilhelma, with both koala females giving birth 1 year after their arrival (whereas all koala in Pairi Daiza died within a 2-5 years after import without breeding). It probably does help that they hired Duisburg's senior koala keeper .

The Wilhelma is certainly not perfect, but in this category it is only the enclosures in the small mammal greenhouse that are somewhat small, despite their age. Enclosure wise I can only think of the Crypt in Pairi Daiza, with the free-flying bats, that is really special.... So for me it is a comfortable Stuttgart win, anywhere between 4-1 and 3-2.

 

[snowleopard]

I don't have a comment related to this particular matchup, but rather an overview of the situation.

Pairi Daiza added an additional 400,000 visitors last year, exceeding 2.6 million guests through the gates in 2024, and so in terms of popularity it's an incredible zoo. They also just put out a new guidebook that's around 350 pages in length, which appeals to many zoo nerds.

And yet...Pairi Daiza is getting bounced out of the ZooChat Cup with three successive defeats. It's remarkable in many ways. Here's a zoo that is vastly different from many others of the world, is building some kind of 'Sanctuary' behemoth rainforest structure that will likely see attendance zoom past 3 million, and the animal collection is massive, and yet it's such an idiosyncratic zoo that it doesn't quite appeal to many folks on this site. I think many of us knew from the start that Pairi Daiza would be doomed, even though TONS of zoo nerds have visited it over the years, as it's such an odd zoo to classify and compare to others.

Stuttgart probably won't go too far, and yet a more compact, solid, reliable zoo like Cologne could be a dark horse to win it all. Only time will tell!

 

[remar]

Within the species list posted by @Kalaw the giant anteater is missing at the Wilhelma list.

I think many of us knew from the start that Pairi Daiza would be doomed, even though TONS of zoo nerds have visited it over the years, as it's such an odd zoo to classify and compare to others.

Kind of true. But i guess PD also had bad luck with the categories. Having a marsupial collection like PD and getting the Wilhelma as opponent is quite harsh. The lack of breeding success with marsupials at PD doesn't help either.

Personally i'm not sure wether to go with 4:1 or 3:2 for Stuttgart.

 

[Philipine eagle]

I vote 3:2 in favour of Stuttgart: more interesting collection, better exhibits and no ear-worms.

 

[Lafone]

I don't have a comment related to this particular matchup, but rather an overview of the situation.

Pairi Daiza added an additional 400,000 visitors last year, exceeding 2.6 million guests through the gates in 2024, and so in terms of popularity it's an incredible zoo. They also just put out a new guidebook that's around 350 pages in length, which appeals to many zoo nerds.

And yet...Pairi Daiza is getting bounced out of the ZooChat Cup with three successive defeats. It's remarkable in many ways. Here's a zoo that is vastly different from many others of the world, is building some kind of 'Sanctuary' behemoth rainforest structure that will likely see attendance zoom past 3 million, and the animal collection is massive, and yet it's such an idiosyncratic zoo that it doesn't quite appeal to many folks on this site. I think many of us knew from the start that Pairi Daiza would be doomed, even though TONS of zoo nerds have visited it over the years, as it's such an odd zoo to classify and compare to others.

Stuttgart probably won't go too far, and yet a more compact, solid, reliable zoo like Cologne could be a dark horse to win it all. Only time will tell!

It's an interesting point which I think it bears into some of the other discussions on theming etc that have gone on in other matches. I haven't visited Pairi Daiza (though it's certainly on my list) but from the photos and comments in this and other matches it begs the question as a zoo on what the boundaries are between entertainment and keeping animals for education and conservation.

If a zoo overstocks an exhibit (albeit one outside this category) to ensure people see an animal and get their monies worth, then certainly they will get visitors who will go in numbers and indeed enthuse about seeing the always active animals from their rooms overlooking the enclosures. If the price of that is some animals kill each other as they don't have enough room or space, is that poor husbandry excused by visitor volume and income alone. Idiosyncratic may not be the right word, theme park with living exhibits perhaps fits better. I guess the issue comes where the animals life is secondary to the guest experience. Perhaps Pairi Daiza is more honest that it just does.

Not to say or suggest that zoo mistreats its animals, doesn't have some amazing things or simply fails to care for them - posts in the other cup matches noted the number of vet professionals and high welfare standards. It just feels like with the revenue from 2.6 million visitors perhaps you don't need to have a small enclosure for anything at all.

The overall goal for Pairi Daiza is less easy to determine than the goal of say, Stuttgart, though all zoos have to provide 'experiences' to survive. I find the debate over Pairi Daiza interesting but in a straightforward way in this cup round does it have anything actually better than it's rival? I think Lintworm's point on 'show' is well made, it's an appetite for the circus with a bit less performance vs a collection that is more 'zoo'.

Back to the specific and on the photos and points made so far regarding this particular group of animals and exhibits and given the breeding record for some rare species appears positive, I've gone 3/2 Stuttgart at the moment.

 

[PossumRoach]

Brushtail Possum

I don’t care if this sounds “childish” or silly but for me this warrants a 4:1 for Wilhelma, even if I don’t like Terra Australis.

 

[Kalaw]

Can you please specify again what mammals exactly you understand by this, I lost it for a moment: all mammals apart from carnivores and ungulates? Primates f.e., are these a specific category?

A follow-up to this, that I asked about in another thread but didn't receive an answer: what category do cetaceans fall under, ungulates or miscellaneous mammals? Of course, this will only be relevant if Nürnberg draws ungulates again or miscellanea, but I still feel it is worth clarifying. Taxonomically, ungulates is the best fit, but morphologically, and 'tonally,' it would be more appropriate to pair them with the sirenians under miscellaneous mammals? Personally, I feel as though if elephants are classed as ungulates because they 'feel' better there, despite being taxonomically distinct, then dolphins should be miscellaneous for the same reason - and given that nobody else brought up the dolphins when Nürnberg played on ungulates, it is a missed opportunity for them if we make that conclusion now.

Sorry for going off-topic.

Returning to the subject at hand, I have reverted to a 3-2 Stuttgart after some more thorough research into Terra Australis and reading the input upthread. That said, I still feel as though I am more likely to switch back to 3-2 Pairi Daiza than I am to 4-1 Stuttgart.

The discussion about theming is a really interesting one. I am not going to go into too much detail about my thoughts here, as it will come up later in the tournament, and it is really only a matter of 'when' and not 'if.' But I will say that, with some exceptions (such as tacky materials or obnoxious music), the theming itself isn't what bothers me, rather how it interacts with animal welfare. If, as seems to be the case with some of Pairi Daiza's other exhibits, a temple was built, and then a tiger enclosure was built into that, with the welfare clearly being secondary, then I find that indefensible and seriously concerning. Look at Pairi's white tiger enclosure for a perfect example. But most of the enclosures in this category don't appear to suffer from such issues, thankfully.

 

[twilighter]

Both zoos’ main strengths in this category are their marsupial collections, each boasting species lists in the double digits. Very few European collections—aside from the two Czech giants, Hamerton, and perhaps Budapest—can compete with their numbers.

Pairi Daiza features a Bear Cuscus in the Tropical House and memorable Capybara/Giant Anteater exhibit close to the old Entrance.

Their Last Frontier section includesone of the best beaver ponds in Europe.

While the Siberian Flying Squirrel may not entirely fit the Land of the Rising Sun theme, it’s still an exciting new species addition.

They also house three species of free-flying bats. The one in The Crypt, alongside the Naked Mole Rat exhibit, is particularly noteworthy.

Their Australian area has a scenic Wombat/Kangaroo walkthrough exhibit and Tasmanian Devils.
However, Pairi Daiza has struggled with koalas, and their koala house has a less-than-successful track record. The same building also houses Echidnas and Potoros.

Pairi Daiza is beginning to look like a championship-tier team competing in the Champions League. Maybe I was a bit too harsh on them, but even if I still don’t see them as the clear winner, they certainly deserve at least 2 points.

Wilhelma’s Terra Australis is responsible for half of their miscellaneous mammal collection, with the Quokka being a particular highlight that has everyone talking. They definitely deserve their merits. That said, some of their indoor exhibits aren’t the most spacious.

Beyond Terra Australis, Stuttgart doesn’t impress as much. The long-awaited Small Mammal and Bird House isn’t particularly groundbreaking. Their collection includes Tamandua, Armadillo, Northern Tree Shrew, Naked Mole Rats, and a handful of rodents—nothing too extraordinary.

Other notable exhibits include the mixed-species Rock Hyrax exhibit, the walkthrough fruit bats, the rather plain concrete beaver pond, and the Round-Eared Elephant Shrew in the Giraffe House.
It’s a close call, but Terra Australis is a too unique experience and can win second match for Stuttgart alone. 3-2 for Wilhelma.

 

[Lafone]

A follow-up to this, that I asked about in another thread but didn't receive an answer: what category do cetaceans fall under, ungulates or miscellaneous mammals? Of course, this will only be relevant if Nürnberg draws ungulates again or miscellanea, but I still feel it is worth clarifying. Taxonomically, ungulates is the best fit, but morphologically, and 'tonally,' it would be more appropriate to pair them with the sirenians under miscellaneous mammals? Personally, I feel as though if elephants are classed as ungulates because they 'feel' better there, despite being taxonomically distinct, then dolphins should be miscellaneous for the same reason - and given that nobody else brought up the dolphins when Nürnberg played on ungulates, it is a missed opportunity for them if we make that conclusion now.

Sorry for going off-topic.

Returning to the subject at hand, I have reverted to a 3-2 Stuttgart after some more thorough research into Terra Australis and reading the input upthread. That said, I still feel as though I am more likely to switch back to 3-2 Pairi Daiza than I am to 4-1 Stuttgart.

The discussion about theming is a really interesting one. I am not going to go into too much detail about my thoughts here, as it will come up later in the tournament, and it is really only a matter of 'when' and not 'if.' But I will say that, with some exceptions (such as tacky materials or obnoxious music), the theming itself isn't what bothers me, rather how it interacts with animal welfare. If, as seems to be the case with some of Pairi Daiza's other exhibits, a temple was built, and then a tiger enclosure was built into that, with the welfare clearly being secondary, then I find that indefensible and seriously concerning. Look at Pairi's white tiger enclosure for a perfect example. But most of the enclosures in this category don't appear to suffer from such issues, thankfully.

Completely agree; theming is all about welfare impact (or not) for me.

 

[Dassie rat]

Pairi Daiza has 23 miscellaneous mammals not found in Stuttgart plus 22 points for mammals found in up to 10 European ZTL collections
Stuttgart has 24 miscellaneous mammals not found in Pairi Daiza plus 40 points for mammals found in up to 10 European ZTL collections
Stuttgart wins 64-45 equating to 3-2

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The lack of breeding success with marsupials at PD doesn't help either.

The lack of breeding success isn't the main stumbling point, of course - it is the high rate of premature mortality. I believe the collection is onto their third batch of Dorcopsis, for instance - having lost an entire group within a year or two of arrival on *two* separate occasions - and as @lintworm noted, they didn't manage to keep their original koala group alive long either.

Stuttgart probably won't go too far, and yet a more compact, solid, reliable zoo like Cologne could be a dark horse to win it all. Only time will tell!

I think you could well be right on both counts, looking ahead to future matches! I'm extremely fond of both collections, but I definitely have to admit that - although Wilhelma is rapidly developing and improving - it is still in many ways a zoo of two halves, and just as much of an acquired taste as Pairi Daiza, whilst Cologne is more consistent overall.

, the rather plain concrete beaver pond,

I actually rather like the beaver exhibit at Wilhelma, and reckon that it has more to recommend it (particularly where size and depth are concerned) than you imply

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I'd be interested to hear arguments and thoughts from @EliasNys and @DCzootripper - see if you can change anyone's minds!

 

[EliasNys]

I'd be interested to hear arguments and thoughts from @EliasNys and @DCzootripper - see if you can change anyone's minds!

Well most of the okay to good enclosures in Pairi Daiza fall under this category. The Crypt is a coom nocturnal exhibit, the capybara/giant anteater(shared with tapir, but I think that isn't eligible in this category), the beaver pond, the north American porcupine enclosure in the lobby of the hotel, the farm also includes some free ranging maras and wallabies, the Oasis has armadillos, bear cuscus, agutis etc. The elephant enclosure( which I think falls under this category) is better than some people claim, with enrichment "temples" added in recent years, the other greenhouse also has free ranging bats, albeit a different species. The Australian area has koalas (which used to have many flaws, but those have been fixed since) echidnas, potoroos, wombats, Tasmanian devils, Swamp wallabies, red kangooroo, Grey kangooroo, and of course, the dorcopsis. Besides the Australian zone I hears Stuttgart doesn't have much, so I thought this justified a 3/2 vote.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The elephant enclosure( which I think falls under this category) is better than some people claim, with enrichment "temples" added in recent years

It does not.