European (Tea)Cup - League E - Paris Zoo & Menagerie vs Beauval

Paris vs Beauval - WATER

  • Paris 5/0 Beauval

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Paris 4/1 Beauval

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Beauval 4/1 Paris

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

TeaLovingDave

Moderator
Staff member
15+ year member
The next round of matches opens with a pair of French competitors which have each come a long way to qualify; the Parisian pair were perhaps expected to fall at the first hurdle given how strong the competition was, but in the end managed to qualify with relative ease, whilst their rural rival to the southwest had precisely the opposite course to progression, being an early favourite but ultimately only progressing due to a chain of lucky events.

The category at hand is one which all reading this thread should be very familiar with at this point in time - WATER AND WETLANDS - and I hope you all enjoy the discussion and debate ahead.
 
The Paris pair have a rather nice selection of category exhibits, including the following:

The Grande Voliere at Menagerie des Plantes, containing a variety of wetland species:

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The wetland walkthrough aviary under the Great Rock at Paris Zoo:

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The large and rather pleasant exhibit complex for Patagonian Sealion and South American Fur Seal at Paris Zoo:

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The manatee pool within the Tropical House at Paris Zoo:

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So I went to look at what species these three zoos have and I got about halfway through Beauval when I realised just how insane their quantity of birds is, which includes a lot of ducks and pretty much all of the "sea" eagles. It might be one of Beauval's strongest suits when it comes to Water, but I'm not super knowledgable on the exhibit quality, sooo...
 
Additionally Vincennes has a fairly solid otter exhibit tacked onto the side of the Grand Rocher - but for me actually isn't really a negative or a positive as I'm not convinced anyone has actually ever seen an otter in there. It does exist though. Plus probably one of the better Europe ectotherm, invert and even amoeba houses in Europe - most of the species in there are probably applicable as there's an abundance of frogs, crayfish, water snakes and even slime mold. It's very interesting but not convinced any of Paris's offerings really stand up to Beauval's (better manatee pool, the hippo aviary, pygmy hippos, fishing cat, sitatunga etc.), but they warrant two points as I love the big wetland aviaries in particular.
 
I have been to all three collections involved, although quite a while ago, particularly for the two Paris zoos.

I was hugely impressed by both the Grand Volíère at the Menagerie and the flamingo walkthrough at Vincennes, although I know the latter is quite an unpopular opinion on this forum and I wonder if I was being overly generous due to it being the first time I had seen flamingos in an aviary and not pinioned. Regardless, both are far inferior to Beauval's Hippo Aviary in my opinion, even if we are brushing the hippos to one side and only looking at the birds. A remarkable amount of space for the vultures, storks, pelicans and egrets, as well as a thrilling experience for the visitors, with the three-storey viewing, and the tendency for some birds (at least on my visit), to make their nests above the hippo viewing gallery. Both have rather nice penguin enclosures, with Beauval's being slightly nicer in my opinion. That said, I feel as though there are *far* more pinioned waterfowl at Beauval than at either Paris collection, with the whole lakes area at the entrance, the ducks in the Pampas enclosure, and the cranes with the takins. So far as I can remember, Paris only really has the Menagerie flamingos and the cranes on the savannah in this regard. So perhaps the two are roughly equal where waterfowl are concerned.

The other major bragging point for Paris is the manatees, although of course Beauval has them as well. I can't really comment on who has a better enclosure, as the new one in the Equatorial Dome wasn't open on my visit. But for marine mammals as a whole, Paris may take the edge, as their fur seal / sea lion mix really impressed me - far more attractive, and probably quite a bit deeper, than the very ugly sea lion arena at Beauval. Not to mention the most impressive sea lion bull that I have ever seen in person!

Where cold-blooded creatures are concerned, I feel as though I am in no position to comment on Beauval as most of them are likely kept in the Dome these days, but I will say that Paris is excellent here, with three reptile houses between the two zoos! There is the European Vivarium at Vincennes housing a very impressive selection of mostly category-relevant native species, then the Reptile House at the Menagerie, a striking old building with an open-topped Nile Crocodile enclosure and some turtles, and finally the Menagerie's Vivarium, which is mostly for smaller species, and from memory included a really strong collection of amphibians!

At first, I went for Beauval, but after writing out this overview I realise that Paris probably takes a slight edge. That said, it is still very tempting to go with Beauval purely for the excellence of the Hippo Aviary, and I could definitely be persuaded by an overview of what the Dome encompasses.

Some photos for Paris:

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@Dusky lory - Vivarium at Menagerie

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@TheoV - Reptile House at Menagerie, with crocodiles on the left. Not sure how much else is category-relevant, but from memory there are a few turtles in the building.

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@SivatheriumGuy - European Vivarium at Vincennes.

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@lintworm - frog tanks in the European Vivarium.

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@SivatheriumGuy - European Otter enclosure backdropped by the historic Great Rock.

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@LegoOwl - anaconda tank at Vincennes, which from the image seems to have gained quite a large number of Mata-matas since my visit, unless I am forgetting them!

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@SivatheriumGuy - Caiman Lizard tank in the Serre Tropicale, which looks to have a far deeper pool than I remember it having, and probably one of the deeper ones I have seen for the species.

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@vogelcommando - Humboldt Penguin pool.

And some for Beauval, not including the Dome or S.A. Aviary as I have no personal experience there, so will leave it for someone else to fill me in:

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@SivatheriumGuy - excellent Humboldt Penguin pool.

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@Maguari - scenic lake by the entrance that unfortunately is only for pinioned birds, although I believe the flamingos have since moved to the S.A. Aviary? Perhaps not all of them and there are surely still some ducks here?

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@Maguari - the little waterways around the Gorillas Greenhouse with stingrays in them were a real highlight for me, although I am not sure if they are still occupied as stingrays are reportedly featured alongside caimans and other fish in the former manatee pool, elsewhere in the building.

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@Antoine - a rather interesting coral aquarium in the Australian greenhouse.

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@lintworm - the Hippo Aviary.

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@Maguari - showing the underwater viewing for the hippos, and giving a sense of the impressive numbers of very large fish living with them.

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@Maguari - one of the largest cichlid tanks I have seen myself, opposite the hippos.

Now attaching these photos and realising I haven't even seen all of Beauval's offerings in this category, I am rather tempted to switch back to 3-2 Beauval, but will stick with 3-2 Paris for now. This is definitely a close one.
 
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@TheoV - Reptile House at Menagerie, with crocodiles on the left. Not sure how much else is category-relevant, but from memory there are a few turtles in the building.

Closed currently unfortunately - a beautiful building that was sorely missed on my visit a couple of months back...
 
The tropical dome and South American aviary are both significant plus marks for Beauval in this category. The tropical dome has many good aquatic exhibits for reptiles around the edge in addition to the obvious larger ones like the manatees. There are also several decent exhibits in the animal houses in the older part of the zoo
 
Closed currently unfortunately - a beautiful building that was sorely missed on my visit a couple of months back...
Thanks for adding this, that is a real hindrance for Paris in this discussion.

I hope this is only a temporary thing for rennovations and that we won't be losing this wonderful old structure.
 
Current holdings on ZTL for crocodilians lists only one for Vincennes, none for J de P, whilst there are 5 at Beauval
 
and pretty much all of the "sea" eagles.

Five out of ten species doesn't exactly count as "pretty much all" :rolleyes::D

Plus probably one of the better Europe ectotherm, invert and even amoeba houses in Europe - most of the species in there are probably applicable as there's an abundance of frogs, crayfish, water snakes and even slime mold.

I'd argue that the slime mould exhibit is worth a whole point in-and-of itself :p its something unusual and unique, it's well-presented, and the accompanying signage was pretty good as I recall!
 
This is a comparable win for Beauval, nearer 4-1 than 3-2 the other way!!
 
The tropical dome and South American aviary are both significant plus marks for Beauval in this category.

You say that, but no one has actually bothered to present any photographic evidence or arguments regarding either of those exhibits - and obviously, counting the entire Tropical Dome for this category is contrary to the spirit of the rules. Still time for this to be rectified, of course :)

On another note, it's been stated above by @Kalaw that the vast majority of the category birds at Beauval are pinioned; I wonder how many of the people giving Beauval the win in part due to the size of their waterfowl collection were among those who previously stated that the large collection at Cologne was unworthy of credit precisely due to their pinioning of waterfowl..... :rolleyes::p
 
You say that, but no one has actually bothered to present any photographic evidence or arguments regarding either of those exhibits - and obviously, counting the entire Tropical Dome for this category is contrary to the spirit of the rules. Still time for this to be rectified, of course :)

On another note, it's been stated above by @Kalaw that the vast majority of the category birds at Beauval are pinioned; I wonder how many of the people giving Beauval the win in part due to the size of their waterfowl collection were among those who previously stated that the large collection at Cologne was unworthy of credit precisely due to their pinioning of waterfowl..... :rolleyes::p
@Kalaw stated he went before the south American aviary opened, none of the birds in there are pinnioned I'm sure and nor are the sea eagles
 
Actually i would be most interested how @Sneeuwpanter can justify the 5:0. Giving a collection with manatees zero points at the water category seems pretty weird to me.
 
On another note, it's been stated above by @Kalaw that the vast majority of the category birds at Beauval are pinioned
To be fair, I didn't say it was the vast majority, even before the Aviary, simply that it was far more than at Paris where if I'm not mistaken there are only two in the entire two zoos relevant to the category that are flight-restricted (flamingos at Menagerie and cranes on the savannah at Vincennes). And this statement, I believe, should still be very much true even with the S.A. Aviary, although indeed I haven't visited recently enough to confirm. I'm assuming that even with the flamingos moving to the aviary the lakes around the entrance are still inhabited by some birds (ducks etc), and that there are still waterfowl in the Pampas enclosure as well as cranes both in the savannah and the takin enclosure. I maintain the belief that this is something of a black mark against Beauval for this category.
Current holdings on ZTL for crocodilians lists only one for Vincennes, none for J de P, whilst there are 5 at Beauval
6 even! Quite astonishing and I really wasn't aware of this. On my visit there were only American Alligators (larger ones in the Vivarium and smaller ones, including one or two albinos, in the Gorillas Greenhouse) and I knew that the Dome had some Tomistomas, but where did all those caiman come from? Quite the impressive crocodilian lineup!

I have been considering at times reverting to 3-2 Beauval, reflecting on how much flight space the S.A. Aviary must offer, and how much I adored the Hippo Aviary, with the knowledge that the Menagerie Reptile House is closed making that even more tempting. Ultimately, I have opted against it owing to my dislike of a couple relevant sections of Beauval, whereas all the relevant sections at Paris are excellent. In addition, this late into the vote with Paris losing regardless, it won't make all too much of a difference.

And to reiterate my question from earlier to any who know more on the situation than I do, is the closure of the Menagerie Reptile House permanent? The suggestion by pipaluk and ZTL that the Menagerie no longer keeps Nile Crocodiles, one of the house's former inhabitants, whatsoever, even offshow, is a little worrying to me.
 
And to reiterate my question from earlier to any who know more on the situation than I do, is the closure of the Menagerie Reptile House permanent? The suggestion by pipaluk and ZTL that the Menagerie no longer keeps Nile Crocodiles, one of the house's former inhabitants, whatsoever, even offshow, is a little worrying to me.

The Reptile House will reopen thankfully, not sure on the status of the crocodiles though.
 
Actually i would be most interested how @Sneeuwpanter can justify the 5:0. Giving a collection with manatees zero points at the water category seems pretty weird to me.

Pretty much personal preference, recency bias and overall vibe. I visited both Paris zoos in 2016 and was realy unimpressed (not to say dissapointed). The only zoological institution i recommend to Paris visitors is Porte Doree aquarium...It's pretty much my personal opinion that everything Paris has, Beauval has bigger and better...Although i also admit i didn't spend hours pouring over old photo's and YouTube videos agonizing over my score.
 
A fairly close match overall, although I suspect this is partially due to the fact that participation levels were pretty low, with not all that many votes cast in either direction (with one vote entirely disregarded per the established rules, although it should be noted that even if @Sneeuwpanter had posted their reasoning within the match timespan rather than mere minutes ago, it would *not* have qualified as valid justification) and few people bothering to actually provide evidence for their votes.

Either way, a win for Beauval:

Paris - 34/70 points - 48.571%
Beauval - 36/70 points - 51.429%
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