European (Tea)Cup - League E - Paris Zoo & Menagerie vs Zoo Berlin

Paris Zoo & Menagerie vs Zoo Berlin - TROPICAL FOREST

  • Paris 5/0 Zoo Berlin

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Paris 4/1 Zoo Berlin

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zoo Berlin 4/1 Paris

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zoo Berlin 5/0 Paris

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

TeaLovingDave

Moderator
Staff member
15+ year member
The category for this one is TROPICAL FORESTS - remember, the general quality of the overall discussion will be enhanced if you provide details about the relative merits of the collections at hand, and go into your thought processes and reasoning for voting as you do!
 
Paris Tropical hall is one of the better ones in Europe, but I am not sure it will be enough. The JDP exhibits in this category, like Big cats and Primates can be considered a slight detractor.
Berlin on the other side has sheer amount of Tropical exhibits both at the Bird house and Aquarium and very strong megafauna collection. I will start with 3-2 for Berlin.
 
So, at a glance on ZTL (so results may vary), relevant species for Zoo Berlin include...

MAMMALS
  • Colombian Black Spider Monkey
  • Sulawesi Babirusa
  • Banteng
  • Lowland Anoa
  • Pygmy Marmoset
  • Wedge-Capped Capuchin
  • Yellow-Backed Duiker
  • Pygmy Hippopotamus
  • Linnaeus' Two-Toed Sloth
  • Black-Rumped Agouti
  • Asian Elephant
  • Western Gorilla
  • Capybara
  • Pileated Gibbon
  • Ocelot
  • Margay
  • Sloth Bear
  • Giant Anteater
  • White-Nosed Coati
  • Okapi
  • Bonobo
  • Jaguar
  • Sumatran Tiger
  • Coppery Titi
  • Sumatran Orangutan
  • Visayan Spotted Deer
  • Common Squirrel Monkey
  • Siamang
  • Forest Buffalo
  • Malayan Tapir
  • Bongo
BIRDS
  • Cuban Amazon
  • Hyacinth Macaw
  • Asian Glossy Starling
  • Great Argus
  • Silvery-Cheeked Hornbill
  • Nicobar Pigeon
  • Southern Cassowary
  • Sunbittern
  • Red Junglefowl
  • Western Crowned Pigeon
  • Montserrat Oriole
  • Bali Myna
  • Edward's Pheasant
  • Grey-Winged Trumpeter
  • Spectacled Owl
  • Brazilian Tanager
  • Kagu
  • King Vulture
  • Temminck's Tragopan
REPTILES
  • Green Basilisk
  • Red-Footed Tortoise
  • Panther Chameleon
  • Indian Gharial
  • Green Iguana
AMPHIBIANS
  • Golden Poison Frog
  • Amazon Milk Frog
And many, MANY more
 
I've voted 3-2 for Zoo Berlin.

Per my statement elsewhere that I want to avoid being the only one to provide comprehensive breakdowns of the species offerings at the two collections in question, and hence risking bias, I would like to remind people to post their thoughts and reasoning, with photographs (personal or from the gallery) as supplementary illustration :)
 
Can someone say something about the visitor experience at Paris?

I appreciate Berlins rarity number at the aquarium and the bird house, but despite being large they are imo quite boring and monotonous (especially the bird house).
 
Whilst I wouldn't personally say all of Berlin's Tropical Rainforests are boring, I will concede many of them are rather basic. They're not bad by any means... well, most of them aren't... but it definitely feels like they're focusing on the quantity more. Granted, I've not been since 2018 - the last time I went abroad to be exact.
 
I'd be interested to hear detailed arguments from @Penshet - perhaps they can sway others to their cause?
 
Berlin seems to have a walk trough the park at the moment in this match-up, while I don’t immediately disagree that they might come out on top in this tie. I do however feel it is not as clear as one might think and so I feel obliged to highlight the great things that these two Parisian zoos have for this category. I have not visited either of the French zoos, but as I plan to do both in the future I have somewhat of an idea of these collections. I feel the most familiar with Vincennes, so I will give an overview of Zoo Paris’s best offerings first.

Mammals:
Primates:

upload_2025-6-26_22-34-26.jpeg
@amur leopard - How to combine a great species with excellent husbandry. The Madagascar area contains many fantastic species in great housing.
Species: Crowned Sifaka and Red-bellied Lemur (this particular enclosure), Black Lemur, Greater Bamboo Lemur, Black and White Ruffed Lemur, White Belted Black and White Ruffed Lemur, Mongoose Lemur (similar enclosures)

upload_2025-6-26_22-54-37.jpeg

@SivatheriumGuy - This island also hosts a group of lemurs in a very lush environment.
Species: Ring-tailed Lemur and Crowned Lemur

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@twilighter - The same fantastic exhibitry goes trough to their South-American primates
Species: Woolly Monkey (this enclosure), Guianan Bearded Saki and Six-banded Armadillo, White-faced Saki and Red Titi and Pied Tamarin and Linnaeus Two-toed Sloth, Geoffroy’s Tufted Marmoset, Golden-handed Lion Tamarin, Golden-headed Lion Tamarin

Carnivores:
upload_2025-6-26_23-14-58.jpeg

@amur leopard - A fantastic enclosure for a big cat from South America. It has a nice stream of water and is very lush.
Species: Jaguar

upload_2025-6-26_23-18-12.jpeg

@SivatheriumGuy - A very nice and again lush enclosure for this feisty canine.
Species: Bush Dog

upload_2025-6-26_23-19-30.jpeg

@twilighter - What is a Madagascar area without the lemur hunter himself in a fantastic enclosure.
Species: Fossa

Others: South American Tapir and Capybara, Giant Anteater, Rodriguez Flying Fox, Straw-colored Fruit Bat

Birds:

The bulk of the birds relevant to this category all live in the Tropical dome. There are free-flying birds but also separate enclosures
upload_2025-6-26_23-45-9.jpeg
@SivatheriumGuy - an example for one of the enclosures in the tropical dome
Species: Toco Toucan (this one), Hyacinth Macaw and Yellow-knobbed Curassow, Hyacinth Macaw
Free-flying: Scarlet Ibis, Roseate Spoonbill,…

upload_2025-6-26_23-59-51.jpeg

@twilighter - The large African aviary does only contain a few species that are relevant to the category, but I thought it to be best to mention it either way.
Species: Violet Turaco, White-cheeked Turaco, maybe others

Reptiles:

Tropical dome contains a few very good reptile enclosures
upload_2025-6-27_0-3-52.jpeg
@SivatheriumGuy - This one is home to the only crocodilian in the two zoos
Species: Cuvier’s Dwarf Caiman

upload_2025-6-27_0-6-0.jpeg

@vogelcommando - an open topped enclosure for Iguana that they share with stingray
Species: Green Iguana, Ocellate River Stingray
Other reptiles include: Emerald Tree Boa, Green Basilisk, Amazon Tree Boa, Malagasy Tree and Ground Boas, Madagascar Giant Day Gecko, Panther Chameleon,…
You could include the manatee enclosure for the fish that live in there such as Arapaima, Black Pacu,…

I tried my best to give a good summary of Zoo Paris/Vincennes which have some great husbandry in this category with the tropical dome containing the majority of the animals. I must say thinks to @StoppableSan for the great species list of his visit in 2023, which helped me situate a lot of species. I hope this overview will provide needed discussion.
 

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This strikes me as an extremely close tie, having been to both Paris zoos (many years ago) but not to Berlin. I don’t have much to add to what @Père Damian's Deer has already said on the Vincennes side of things, but I will say that while the Serre Tropicale’s enclosures are excellent, the scarcity of free-ranging species, obvious artificial features and limited choice of pathways make it far less immersive than other such buildings. Not that Berlin have a comparable counterpart. The Menagerie’s orangutans weigh them down, but then Berlin’s ape enclosures are fairly bad too, and the elephant enclosure is arguably a worse offence.

Do the Parisian manatees count? In terms of my vote, they could be decisive in such a close match.
 
This strikes me as an extremely close tie, having been to both Paris zoos (many years ago) but not to Berlin.

Somewhat agreed - it's definitely closer than the score reflects, and I hope further people make the case for Paris (and indeed Berlin, for which - as yet - no one has provided any photographs or detailed discussion), but I don't think it is quite as close as you suggest.

The Menagerie’s orangutans weigh them down, but then Berlin’s ape enclosures are fairly bad too

I don't think they are in any way comparable in quality, however - the Berlin enclosures are far larger overall, and the outside exhibits contain far more vegetation.

Do the Parisian manatees count? In terms of my vote, they could be decisive in such a close match.

I don't think they would, no.
 
I don't think they would, no.

I think they would if they were the Amazonian or maybe even the African, funnily enough. The West Indian manatee - the species in all European zoos that have sea cows - is just the one species that isn't really tropical forest associated.
 
Let's have a look at The Ménagerie then. I'm not as familiar with this zoo as I was with Vincennes, but after some research I hope I can give a decent overview for the goods and bads.
Mammals:
Primates:
full

@lintworm - Where better to start than the biggest talking point in the Ménagerie. A great historical building which was built in 1936, unfortunately this sometimes means that enclosures will be inadequate for the animals. While this is the case for the Orang-utans (mainly space), for the Guenons and Mangabeys these enclosures are not bad. It contains natural substrate and lots of climbing structures and enrichment.
Species: Bornean Orang-utan, L'hoest's Guenon, Black-crested Mangabey, White-naped Mangabey

full

@ralph - This former pheasantry now houses small South American monkeys and some birds. These enclosures are not the tallest, but do contain a lush environment with nice climbing for tamarins. Unfortunately I do think the squirrel monkeys might be slightly too big for these enclosures.
Species: Golden Lion Tamarin, Goeldi's Monkey, Bolivian Squirrel Monkey, Bali Myna, Grey-winged Trumpeter

Carnivores:
full

@Buldeo - The Fauverie (1937) is also one that might be of concern, but seeing as only two species count for this category, the limited enclosures for the big Leopards won't be included. The animals that count are of a smaller size and perhaps better suited to these cages.
Species: Indochinese Clouded Leopard, Northern Luzon Giant Cloud Rat
Marsupial:
full

@TheoV - An enclosure for a very charismatic species.
Species: Goodfellow's Tree Kangaroo

Hoofstock:

full

@kiang
full

@TheoV
full

@Austin the Sengi - These are some of the enclosures for ungulates. While they still keep the charm of this old city zoo, some of them can be somewhat undersized.
Species: Indian Gaur, Malayan Tapir, Visayan Warty Pig, Lowland Anoa, Red River Hog
Mammals that are also at the zoo that I did not mention: Azara's Agouti, Binturong, Dusky Pademelon, Indian Porcupine

Birds:

A lot of the aviaries lookalike in true old zoo-style so I will give a few examples
full

@Austin the Sengi
full

@duskylory - While these aviaries can have a little charm, they feel outdated and perhaps a bit worn out especially for the larger birds. The pheasantry does give off this old charm
Species: Spectacled Owl, Palm Cockatoo, King Vulture,...
They also have a Southern Cassowary enclosure.

full

@cockroach - The zoo does have a nice vivarium with some nice species that fit the category.
Species: New Caledonia Giant Gecko, William's Electric Blue Gecko, Western Gaboon Viper, Ocellated Lizard, ...

Summary: I hope I gave somewhat of a good overview of the Ménagerie (feel free to correct me) as this wasn't an easy task for someone that hasn't visited. This might not make Paris win, but I feel that it is nice for people to see what both categories have as most know Berlin by heart.
 
I'm switching my vote to 3-2 for Paris. They clearly have more than enough to compete in this category and with the lack of any real argument/discussion of Berlin's merits I'm leaning towards Paris for now. I'd be happy to reevaluate pending more info on Berlin.
 
Bit of a quieter match than I had hoped for:

Paris - 31/70 points - 44.286%
Zoo Berlin - 39/70 points - 55.714%
 
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