This might be a rather interesting one, as I have a feeling both collections are rather strong in this regard - the category is MISCELLANEOUS MAMMALS.
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
European (Tea)Cup - PRESTIGE LEAGUE - Beauval vs Leipzig
- Thread starter TeaLovingDave
- Start date
Kalaw
Well-Known Member
This is a tough one. Manatees versus pangolins.
I don’t know much about what Leipzig has to offer beyond the aforementioned pangolins and their work with Eastern Quolls, but I can speak for Beauval. The manatee pool in the Dome is good, but overstocked I think. Beauval is (second perhaps to Prague) the best zoo I’ve been to for Australian animals. There are wonderful enclosures for koalas, tree kangaroos and various macropods, the former two kept in a large greenhouse and providing with abundant climbing. Certainly in terms of height, they are some of the largest enclosures I’ve seen for the species. A huge Pampas enclosure keeps Capybara and Mara. Beauval has fruit bats in the Dome but if I’m not mistaken they aren’t truly free-ranging, rather confined to a (very large) walkthrough aviary, which seems a strange choice. Does Leipzig have anything similar in Gondwanaland?
I’ll start with 3-2 to Leipzig but depending on what information, or the lack thereof, is provided for the German collection I could well switch in favour of Beauval.
I don’t know much about what Leipzig has to offer beyond the aforementioned pangolins and their work with Eastern Quolls, but I can speak for Beauval. The manatee pool in the Dome is good, but overstocked I think. Beauval is (second perhaps to Prague) the best zoo I’ve been to for Australian animals. There are wonderful enclosures for koalas, tree kangaroos and various macropods, the former two kept in a large greenhouse and providing with abundant climbing. Certainly in terms of height, they are some of the largest enclosures I’ve seen for the species. A huge Pampas enclosure keeps Capybara and Mara. Beauval has fruit bats in the Dome but if I’m not mistaken they aren’t truly free-ranging, rather confined to a (very large) walkthrough aviary, which seems a strange choice. Does Leipzig have anything similar in Gondwanaland?
I’ll start with 3-2 to Leipzig but depending on what information, or the lack thereof, is provided for the German collection I could well switch in favour of Beauval.
Père Damian's Deer
Well-Known Member
Leipzig and Beauval both have a nice collection, but I believe that Leipzig has the better collection alltogether.
@Maguari - Enclosures for nocturnal Marsupials in Gondwanaland. With the aforementioned breeding succes of the Quolls in Leipzig.
Species: Eastern Quoll, Kowari
@gulogulogulo
@ronnienl - Great Koala indoor enclosures in a repurposed classical building and also are able to be put in an outside enclosure.
@Maguari - Zootierliste lists Red-necked Wallaby, and as I have yet to visit Leipzig I assume it will be this enclosure in a nice lush environment. (2011)
@RonBurrgundy - Two species of elephant shrews, in multiple locations with very impressive breeding results. This one is in Gondwanaland.
Species: Black-and-rufous Sengi
@Swedish Zoo Fan
@JigerofLemuria - Vietnamese Small Flying Foxes live at two locations, in the Birdhouse and freeflying in the huge Gondwanaland. There also a few species scattered around in Gondwanaland either in an enclosure or free roaming.
Species: Black-rumped Agouti, Linneaus Two-toed Sloth
@MagpieGoose - A fantastic area with a good array of relevant species.
Species: Giant Anteater, Capybara, Patagonian Mara
@Nasua
@LaughingDove - Perhaps the decider for this round, Chinese Pangolin with two enclosures fenced off by a fake tree. Southern Three-banded Armadillo and the rare Sri Lankan Giant Squirrel also live in the Elephant house.
@Maguari - A few enclosures in the Giraffe house contain some small rodents.
Species: Ansell's Mole Rat, Fat Sand Rat, Round-eared Sengi
@RonBurrgundy - Enclosure in the tiger house containing the rare Reed Vole.
Other relevant species include: Cape Porcupine, Common Hamster, Dusky Egyptian Spiny Mouse, Eurasian Harvest Mouse, Père David's Rock Squirrel, Spinifex Hopping Mouse, (Cuy), (Flemish Giant)
I have made this list before my visit in September so there could be some mistakes, it also surprises me how little amount of newer pictures exists for Zoo Leipzig. I do think this is enough to beat Beauval. Leipzig has a great collection of small mammals and, also does exceptional work in breeding.
@Maguari - Enclosures for nocturnal Marsupials in Gondwanaland. With the aforementioned breeding succes of the Quolls in Leipzig.
Species: Eastern Quoll, Kowari
@gulogulogulo
@ronnienl - Great Koala indoor enclosures in a repurposed classical building and also are able to be put in an outside enclosure.
@Maguari - Zootierliste lists Red-necked Wallaby, and as I have yet to visit Leipzig I assume it will be this enclosure in a nice lush environment. (2011)
@RonBurrgundy - Two species of elephant shrews, in multiple locations with very impressive breeding results. This one is in Gondwanaland.
Species: Black-and-rufous Sengi
@Swedish Zoo Fan
@JigerofLemuria - Vietnamese Small Flying Foxes live at two locations, in the Birdhouse and freeflying in the huge Gondwanaland. There also a few species scattered around in Gondwanaland either in an enclosure or free roaming.
Species: Black-rumped Agouti, Linneaus Two-toed Sloth
@MagpieGoose - A fantastic area with a good array of relevant species.
Species: Giant Anteater, Capybara, Patagonian Mara
@Nasua
@LaughingDove - Perhaps the decider for this round, Chinese Pangolin with two enclosures fenced off by a fake tree. Southern Three-banded Armadillo and the rare Sri Lankan Giant Squirrel also live in the Elephant house.
@Maguari - A few enclosures in the Giraffe house contain some small rodents.
Species: Ansell's Mole Rat, Fat Sand Rat, Round-eared Sengi
@RonBurrgundy - Enclosure in the tiger house containing the rare Reed Vole.
Other relevant species include: Cape Porcupine, Common Hamster, Dusky Egyptian Spiny Mouse, Eurasian Harvest Mouse, Père David's Rock Squirrel, Spinifex Hopping Mouse, (Cuy), (Flemish Giant)
I have made this list before my visit in September so there could be some mistakes, it also surprises me how little amount of newer pictures exists for Zoo Leipzig. I do think this is enough to beat Beauval. Leipzig has a great collection of small mammals and, also does exceptional work in breeding.
Kalaw
Well-Known Member
To compare with @Père Damian's Deer 's list above, here is Beauval's species list from ZTL:
- Antillean Manatee
- Azara's Agouti
- Black-tailed Prairie Dog
- Cape Rock Hyrax
- Capybara
- Giant Anteater
- Goodfellow's Tree-kangaroo
- Indian Crested Porcupine
- Naked Mole-rat
- Northern Koala
- Patagonian Mara
- Red Kangaroo
- Rodriguez Flying Fox
- Southern Tamandua (pure Paraguayan subspecies?)
- Souther Three-banded Armadillo
- Tasmanian Devil
- Western Brush-tailed Bettong
That's 17 species to Leipzig's 25 (if the list above is exhaustive), and Beauval also has fewer novelties than Leipzig. When it comes to rodents there is no comparison in terms of collection, though Beauval is certainly superior for marsupials, I would wager, with the tassies being their best asset that I somehow forgot to mention above. Both have something the other has no answer to with the manatees and pangolins. Then again, Leipzig has the quolls and has been instrumental in establishing their population in Europe. Of course the latter is a little rarer, but then Leipzig has famously struggled to breed them across well over a decade (where Prague for instance has done so twice with a fraction the time and experience) whilst Beauval breeds manatees regularly; a little too much for their own good, as between that and the reluctance to send any elsewhere their tank is becoming a little overstocked from what I know.
Personally, the overview above has reasserted my confidence in my pro-Leipzig stance, given my love for such species as flying squirrels and mole-rats other than your classic Naked species, such as Ansell's. It shouldn't merit any more than a 3-2 however when one considers the excellence of Beauval's Australian zone and their respectable number of offerings throughout, espcially when one of those offerings is a manatee.
Some photos for Beauval.
@lintworm - manatee tank from above.
@antonmuster - underwater viewing showcasing the impressive depth.
@lintworm - the series of excellent indoor tree kangaroo cages. I don't recall any outdoor area (could be wrong), but I know with certainty that the koalas have one.
@Maguari - koala enclosure.
@Haliaeetus - excellent Tasmanian Devil enclosure.
@Antoine - a portion of the enormous Pampas exhibit with Capybara, mara and possibly agouti as well?
@Antoine - the walkthrough fruit bat aviary in the Dome.
If I'm not mistaken the hyraxes are kept in the new kopje exhibit which I haven't seen in person but am quite curious about. If anyone have photos of it, I would love to see them.
- Antillean Manatee
- Azara's Agouti
- Black-tailed Prairie Dog
- Cape Rock Hyrax
- Capybara
- Giant Anteater
- Goodfellow's Tree-kangaroo
- Indian Crested Porcupine
- Naked Mole-rat
- Northern Koala
- Patagonian Mara
- Red Kangaroo
- Rodriguez Flying Fox
- Southern Tamandua (pure Paraguayan subspecies?)
- Souther Three-banded Armadillo
- Tasmanian Devil
- Western Brush-tailed Bettong
That's 17 species to Leipzig's 25 (if the list above is exhaustive), and Beauval also has fewer novelties than Leipzig. When it comes to rodents there is no comparison in terms of collection, though Beauval is certainly superior for marsupials, I would wager, with the tassies being their best asset that I somehow forgot to mention above. Both have something the other has no answer to with the manatees and pangolins. Then again, Leipzig has the quolls and has been instrumental in establishing their population in Europe. Of course the latter is a little rarer, but then Leipzig has famously struggled to breed them across well over a decade (where Prague for instance has done so twice with a fraction the time and experience) whilst Beauval breeds manatees regularly; a little too much for their own good, as between that and the reluctance to send any elsewhere their tank is becoming a little overstocked from what I know.
Personally, the overview above has reasserted my confidence in my pro-Leipzig stance, given my love for such species as flying squirrels and mole-rats other than your classic Naked species, such as Ansell's. It shouldn't merit any more than a 3-2 however when one considers the excellence of Beauval's Australian zone and their respectable number of offerings throughout, espcially when one of those offerings is a manatee.
Some photos for Beauval.
@lintworm - manatee tank from above.
@antonmuster - underwater viewing showcasing the impressive depth.
@lintworm - the series of excellent indoor tree kangaroo cages. I don't recall any outdoor area (could be wrong), but I know with certainty that the koalas have one.
@Maguari - koala enclosure.
@Haliaeetus - excellent Tasmanian Devil enclosure.
@Antoine - a portion of the enormous Pampas exhibit with Capybara, mara and possibly agouti as well?
@Antoine - the walkthrough fruit bat aviary in the Dome.
If I'm not mistaken the hyraxes are kept in the new kopje exhibit which I haven't seen in person but am quite curious about. If anyone have photos of it, I would love to see them.
Leipzig has 19 types of miscellaneous mammals not found at Beauval and gets 38 points for those found in up to 10 European collections giving a total of 57
Beauval has 13 types of miscellaneous mammals not found at Leipzig and gets 5 points for those found in up to 10 European collections giving a total of 18
I'm going to make this 3-2 to Leipzig
Beauval has 13 types of miscellaneous mammals not found at Leipzig and gets 5 points for those found in up to 10 European collections giving a total of 18
I'm going to make this 3-2 to Leipzig
I'd be interested to hear the thoughts and opinions of the four Beauval voters - @pipaluk , @Haasje , @Jogy and @EliasNys - to see whether they can convince anyone to switch allegiance in their direction, or indeed encourage more people to vote full stop 
people haven't really discussed Beauval at much length thus far, which may be skewing the result somewhat.
Moreover, I would be interested to hear the thoughts of @Penshet as the sole 4-1 Leipzig voter - again, they may be able to convince more people to vote!
people haven't really discussed Beauval at much length thus far, which may be skewing the result somewhat.Moreover, I would be interested to hear the thoughts of @Penshet as the sole 4-1 Leipzig voter - again, they may be able to convince more people to vote!
EliasNys
Well-Known Member
I'd be interested to hear the thoughts and opinions of the four Beauval voters - @pipaluk , @Haasje , @Jogy and @EliasNys - to see whether they can convince anyone to switch allegiance in their direction, or indeed encourage more people to vote full stop
Moreover, I would be interested to hear the thoughts of @Penshet as the sole 4-1 Leipzig voter - again, they may be able to convince more people to vote!
Well I think for this one it largely depends on which species you like the most. Manatees and tree kangaroos are species i personally like far more than quolls and kowaris. I also value breeding results. Beauval has excellent breeding record with manatees and tree kangaroos. Leipzig with quolls and kowaris. So it's really close but I believe beauval is just a little bit better in this category. But I have never been to either collection, so I can still be persuaded in favor of Leipzig.
A potentially-interesting addendum to this statement; if Beauval were not working with manatees and tree-kangaroos, the two species in question would still be doing well in European captive collections. Conversely, Leipzig is pretty much solely responsible for keeping the European captive population of Eastern Quoll going, and increasingly (alongside Poznan) is performing a similar role for Kowari.
The latter is particularly significant when one considers that there isn't an extant captive population of Kowari in Australian collections, and as such the breeding efforts of Leipzig are all the more valuable given the fact that (unlike with the Eastern Quoll) no imports of fresh blood are possible.
Let's face it Leipzig is winning due to the pangolin, no other reason, but given they are no longer unique and Prague has bred them the weighting should be substantially diminished. As for any vote of 4-1 that is ridiculous against a zoo with the best breeding record and amazing Manatee exhibit plus Tasmanian devil, tree kangaroo, western woylie etc. Without the pangolin this would be an easy win for Beauval
That view of the 4m deep Manatee pool as you enter the tropical dome will live with me forever, a classic moment even though I I had seen the species before in a bath tub at Tierpark Berlin. Only Baby at Duisburg beat the manatees at Beauval
That view of the 4m deep Manatee pool as you enter the tropical dome will live with me forever, a classic moment even though I I had seen the species before in a bath tub at Tierpark Berlin. Only Baby at Duisburg beat the manatees at Beauval
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Although I definitely disagree with you that if the pangolin were to be disregarded there would be no other reason for Leipzig to win, and that Beauval has the better breeding record of the two collections, I reckon that we are in complete agreement that a 4-1 vote for Leipzig is entirely unwarranted
which is one reason I would be interested to hear the thoughts and motivations behind said vote.
Less discussion than I had hoped for, and a lot of untapped potential lines of discussion, but an interesting match nonetheless:
Beauval - 41/95 points - 43.158%
Leipzig - 54/95 points - 56.842%
Beauval - 41/95 points - 43.158%
Leipzig - 54/95 points - 56.842%