European zoo attendance

[Crowthorne]

I think a new bus line to a zoo is something easy to lobby for. There is a win-win situation - the bus line gets the tickets, the zoo gets extra visitors. There are relatively low 'sunk' costs.

Bus routes are something more likely to close than open up. Whipsnade has lost their only decent direct bus route, leaving them with an indirect route that requires a change of bus and a very poorly timed last bus from the zoo. There are probably others with just as bad a service.

Some zoos put on a shuttle bus to and from the nearest public transport hub. These only one I've used (about 4 years ago now, so things might have changed) was Paradise Wildlife Park, which would shuttle visitors in a minibus for a small return fee from Broxborne train station.

 

[Andrew Swales]

Some zoos put on a shuttle bus you and from the nearest public transport hub. These only one I've used (about 4 years ago now, so things might have changed) was Paradise Wildlife Park, which would shuttle visitors in a minibus for a small return fee from Broxborne train station.

What if the nearest public transport hubs are spread across three or four towns?
The PWP example is an oft-quoted one, but the mechanics of how it works (worked) seem shrouded in mystery. Were there actually a fleet of mini-buses? - all with qualified drivers on a good wage - did they run to a schedule - or, was it pre-booked only?, so some kind of taxi - what would happen if 13 people needed a lift and there were only 12 seats? - given the costs of the vehicles, the insurance and the drivers, it must lose money, with 12 or less at a time.

Whipsnade has lost their only decent direct bus route, leaving them with an indirect route that requires a change of bus and a very poorly timed last bus from the zoo.

Whipsnade is one of the only 3 UK zoos mentioned to buck the 30% increase ceiling, despite having declining public transport links.

 

[Pertinax]

Those two Polar Bears were equal to Chi-Chi over here, but were cute cubs of course - and the latest such has done wonders for Highland in the last couple of years.

I also remember Brumas and the frenzy over her in the early months- huge queues to see her stretching along the Mappin Terraces and even out of the zoo I think. Its interesting that the next PB cub to be reared in Britain was Bristol's Sebastian and once again the magic worked for the zoo, with long queues waiting, though on a rather smaller scale than at London, as its a smaller city. ChiChi was well marketed, what with her rather strange arrival, firstly being 'on deposit' to the zoo with her owner, the dealer Heini Demmer, and then the zoo buying her so she could stay. Pipaluk the next Polar Bear cub was a bit later, I don't think he had quite the draw of Brumas or ChiChi for whatever reason but was no doubt very popular in those early months while still a cute cub- which doesn't last long in bears as they start to grow fast. As soon as they are big, the frantic interest seems to vanish! ChiChi as an adult became better known for being aggressive and moody and in her later years was largely forgotten by visitors as she didn't show herself well anymore.

 

[Crowthorne]

They way it worked when I used it was you'd phone a number as advertised at the train station on a poster. Then the minibus would come and pick you up. Coming back it left at certain times (can't remember for sure though). The return cost £3. The driver seemed to be one of the general zoo staff, we chatted about the work he'd done with some of the animals.

This was a school-day in March, so the service might have been running on a more ad-hoc basis than it might have done at busier times, but I have no way of knowing for sure. I was the only one in the bus for both journeys.

 

[Andrew Swales]

They way it worked when I used it was you'd phone a number as advertised at the train station on a poster. Then the minibus would come and pick you up. Coming back it left at certain times (can't remember for sure though). The return cost £3. The driver seemed to be one of the general zoo staff, we chatted about the work he'd done with some of the animals.

This was a school-day in March, so the service might have been running on a more ad-hoc basis than it might have done at busier times, but I have no way of knowing for sure. I was the only one in the bus for both journeys.

That is interesting, though it is difficult to see how a keeper could drop what they were doing to collect visitors, so PWP must have other staff available to do such, who would need public service vehicle training and insurance. If only one visitor phoned, he would have to do the run for £3, ie £2.50 plus VAT. I cannot see how the driver is paid and a vehicle costing upwards of £30,000 is run for this.

 

[Pertinax]

Am I right in thinking that the largest/busiest zoos in France itself are in the west of the country, in areas benefiting from a steady stream of northern European tourists heading south?

What interests me about the French zoos is how they have largely only appeared comparatively recently, in the last fifty years or even less. Unlike Germany with all its long-established city zoos, France seemed to have virtually no long established zoos apart from the two in Paris. Yet now there are a number of front-runners like Beauval, La Palmyre, St Martin etc.

 

[Andrew Swales]

What interests me about the French zoos is how they have largely only appeared comparatively recently, in the last fifty years or even less. Unlike Germany with all its long-established city zoos, France seemed to have virtually no long established zoos apart from the two in Paris. Yet now there are a number of front-runners like Beauval, La Palmyre, St Martin etc.

PD can perhaps be added to your list too, as although in Belgium, that part of Belgium does feel very French.

 

[Tim May]

What interests me about the French zoos is how they have largely only appeared comparatively recently, in the last fifty years or even less. Unlike Germany with all its long-established city zoos, France seemed to have virtually no long established zoos apart from the two in Paris.

France also has the long-established Mulhouse Zoo too although, of course, Mulhouse (and its zoo) was in Germany until after the First World War...

 

[Pertinax]

PD can perhaps be added to your list too, as although in Belgium, that part of Belgium does feel very French.

Yes, it seemed very like France to me. When I went last May I had less difficulty with the language, than had it been Dutch as they speak in the North. (Though English is quite widely spoken anyway)

 

[TeaLovingDave]

What if the nearest public transport hubs are spread across three or four towns?
The PWP example is an oft-quoted one, but the mechanics of how it works (worked) seem shrouded in mystery. Were there actually a fleet of mini-buses? - all with qualified drivers on a good wage - did they run to a schedule - or, was it pre-booked only?, so some kind of taxi - what would happen if 13 people needed a lift and there were only 12 seats? - given the costs of the vehicles, the insurance and the drivers, it must lose money, with 12 or less at a time.

Quite; and in your case there are literally no public transport stops within 3 miles barring a single service which runs only once a day - so the cost of any (highly) theoretical shuttle bus would be even higher given the fact it would require a 6 mile round trip to Sawtry and back.

I don't know the answers to your questions as far as PWP goes, but in the case of the Howletts shuttle bus (now discontinued) it used to be weekends only and timed to meet train services arriving at Bekesbourne station in the winter, and week-long and similarly timed in the summer, then later was altered to pre-booked summer holiday weekdays only.

although, of course, Mulhouse (and its zoo) was in Germany until after the First World War...

Only for around a shade under 50 years, however - I believe it was annexed by the German Empire at the end of the Franco-Prussian war of 1871, and previously represented an independent Swiss enclave within French Alsace.

Not that any of this matters to the question at hand, I just like reading about historical geography

Yes, it seemed very like France to me. When I went last May I had less difficulty with the language, than had it been Dutch as they speak in the North. (Though English is quite widely spoken anyway)

Pairi Daiza is literally one of only two continental zoological collections where I have met with anti-British attitudes and treatment, not helped by the fact that my ability to speak French is nil.

 

[Andrew Swales]

Quite; and in your case there are literally no public transport stops within 3 miles barring a single service which runs only once a day - so the cost of any (highly) theoretical shuttle bus would be even higher given the fact it would require a 6 mile round trip to Sawtry and back.

I don't know the answers to your questions as far as PWP goes, but in the case of the Howletts shuttle bus (now discontinued) it used to be weekends only and timed to meet train services arriving at Bekesbourne station in the winter, and week-long and similarly timed in the summer, then later was altered to pre-booked summer holiday weekdays only.

Yes. As you probably guessed it is something we have given much thought to, but being pretty equally situated between a number of towns and cities around 8 to 20 miles away (even if two of them are on the east coast main railway line), the logistics/costs are quite impossible. There is however talk of a new railway station opening to serve the new town of Alconbury Weald which sits on the junction of the A14 and the A1(M) right on said railway line. Alconbury Weald is in the first stage of development, with many thousands of houses being built on an ex US air-base, and is just 3 miles south-east of us. A railway station there could make a difference - if I live long enough to see it... and could well warrant us re-opening the matter of a shuttle.

Pairi Daiza is literally one of only two continental zoological collections where I have met with anti-British attitudes and treatment, not helped by the fact that my ability to speak French is nil.

In southern Belgium and northern France this is possible, and Brexit appears to have been taken personally by a few and hardened stereotypes. Given your nationality, I doubt that any attempt to speak French would have made much difference to the individuals you crossed paths with.

 

[Tim May]

Only for around a shade under 50 years, however - I believe it was annexed by the German Empire at the end of the Franco-Prussian war of 1871, and previously represented an independent Swiss enclave within French Alsace.

Indeed; I was aware of that. The point I was making was that for most of Mulhouse Zoo's early history it was a German Zoo not a Frech one.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

In southern Belgium and northern France this is possible, and Brexit appears to have been taken personally by a few and hardened stereotypes. Given your nationality, I doubt that any attempt to speak French would have made much difference to the individuals you crossed paths with.

You could well be correct, although the fact it was younger individuals with whom I encountered issues somewhat defies the stereotype, as would the fact that I accompanied by another British Zoochatter who didn't encounter issues and *could* speak a little French, and was able to speak Dutch to fill the gaps

It's a lot easier to discern precisely why I had trouble in the other collection of which I alluded, as that was Dresden, and the individual in question appeared to be in their 80s.......

 

[Dassie rat]

This illustrates how important is a convenient transport connection for a zoo. Zoos should first lobby their local governments for new direct public transport lines to the zoo.

Berlin Tierpark is very close to a station.

 

[Andrew Swales]

You could well be correct, although the fact it was younger individuals with whom I encountered issues somewhat defies the stereotype, as would the fact that I accompanied by another British Zoochatter who didn't encounter issues and *could* speak a little French, and was able to speak Dutch to fill the gaps

I am aware that this is a little off-thread, but good friends from England who travel routinely to French colleagues for both themselves and for us, (and have done for many, many years) have encountered anti-British feeling over the last year or so, for the first time; in northern France where there is a lot of Channel traffic. Ejected from bars, refusal to serve them and being turned away at hotels; and interestingly in each instance they were 'rescued' by other sympathetic (and embarrassed) locals.

Berlin Tierpark is very close to a station.

That somewhat deflates the point about the footfall difference between the two being down to public transport links or lack of them...

 

[TeaLovingDave]

That somewhat deflates the point about the footfall difference between the two being down to public transport links or lack of them...

Perhaps the difference is that Zoo Berlin is served by a major railway station (until the construction of the Hauptbahnhof was completed in 2006, it was actually the main station in Berlin for national and international services) and is situated in the city centre close to many other tourist locations, whilst Tierpark Berlin is "merely" served by a U-bahn station on one of the various suburban branch lines..... the upshot being that other than among locals and people visiting locals who live on the branch line, the Tierpark is subject to a significantly lower chance of passing trade. And of course, even if tourists know about the Tierpark, they are liable to stick to the collection which takes only minutes to reach by public transport from the city centre, rather than the best part of a half hour.

 

[Dassie rat]

Stuttgart and Frankfurt Zoos are near branch line stations. I'm surprised that Frankfurt isn't on the list of the top 41 most visited European animal collections.

 

[lintworm]

Stuttgart and Frankfurt Zoos are near branch line stations. I'm surprised that Frankfurt isn't on the list of the top 41 most visited European animal collections.

Frankfurt is around place 54 on the list in the range of Amersfoort, Barcelona, Antibes, Paris Zoo de Vincennes, Duisburg, Longleat & Safaripark Beekse Bergen.

If looking at 2019 data Zoo Osnabruck has also reached 1 million visitors (though they most probably use the VDZ key, which significantly inflates attendance). In general 2019 seems to have been an even better zoo year than 2018, with many zoos on the continent reaching record highs and only very few zoos have reported decreasing attendance.

 

[CGSwans]

Frankfurt is around place 54 on the list in the range of Amersfoort, Barcelona, Antibes, Paris Zoo de Vincennes, Duisburg, Longleat & Safaripark Beekse Bergen.

If looking at 2019 data Zoo Osnabruck has also reached 1 million visitors (though they most probably use the VDZ key, which significantly inflates attendance). In general 2019 seems to have been an even better zoo year than 2018, with many zoos on the continent reaching record highs and only very few zoos have reported decreasing attendance.

What is the “VDZ key”?

 

[lintworm]

What is the “VDZ key”?

The VDZ is the main German zoo association and its members (basically all major zoos in Germany, Switzerland and Austria) are often still using a key by which they count every annual pass holder for 20 visits. This is off-course an inflated number and zoos like Cologne, Wilhelma, Basel & Zurich have stopped using this key in recent years and saw attendance drop by 20%-50%. Basel being the extreme case which went from roughly 2 million visitors to about 1 million per year as they have a large number of annual pass holders.