Favourite Giraffe Species

Favourite Giraffe Species

  • Nubian Giraffe

    Votes: 3 8.3%
  • South African Giraffe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • West Africa Giraffe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kordofan Giraffe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Angolan Giraffe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Thornicroft's Giraffe

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Reticulated Giraffe

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Masai Giraffe

    Votes: 5 13.9%
  • Okapi

    Votes: 24 66.7%

  • Total voters
    36
In that case, given how promiscuous Mallard are, and how many species of waterfowl they will interbreed with (the only two dabbling ducks which they don't and can't hybridise with are the pair classified within Aix, Mandarin Duck and Wood Duck) there really isn't much hope for convincing you to see logic and preventing you from lumping every single dabbling duck from Shoveller to Baikal Teal and everything in-between into Anas platyrhynchos :p

One can only dream of such a big lump...
 
But does anything other than geography isolate their reproduction? None of the other normal reproductive isolating mechanisms applies to the different giraffe populations. They are capable of reproduction and can produce viable, fertile offspring. While there is certainly a case that can be made they are different species, there are enough similarities and the ability to produce viable, fertile offspring make a valid case for a single species model as well. Just because they are on "different evolutionary trajectories" doesn't mean they qualify as different species yet, even if they may be more distinct in thousands or millions of years.

It seems to be still unclear why it doesn't happen in the wild, but given the extreme rarity of recent gene flow despite there not being an obvious geographic barrier, means something is happening. The main theory I could find is that it is different rainfall patterns between the different populations, meaning each has its own breeding season which pre-empts hybridisation (and it it happens, reduced fitness of the offspring as they are born in the "wrong" season). Such a reproductive barrier is well-established for other taxa. Another option is partner selection based on pelage.

I suggest you read these papers:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ece3.4490
Genomic analysis reveals limited hybridization among three giraffe species in Kenya | BMC Biology | Full Text

Given the wealth of data that indicates there are (3-)4 giraffe species based on their genetics, it seems wise to follow the experts here. Interbreeding in a captive setting is a proven very bad way to define a species.
 
It seems to be still unclear why it doesn't happen in the wild, but given the extreme rarity of recent gene flow despite there not being an obvious geographic barrier, means something is happening. The main theory I could find is that it is different rainfall patterns between the different populations, meaning each has its own breeding season which pre-empts hybridisation (and it it happens, reduced fitness of the offspring as they are born in the "wrong" season). Such a reproductive barrier is well-established for other taxa. Another option is partner selection based on pelage.

I suggest you read these papers:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ece3.4490
Genomic analysis reveals limited hybridization among three giraffe species in Kenya | BMC Biology | Full Text

Given the wealth of data that indicates there are (3-)4 giraffe species based on their genetics, it seems wise to follow the experts here. Interbreeding in a captive setting is a proven very bad way to define a species.
Thanks, I just read through those two papers. It appears the evidence of these splits are more compelling than I originally thought and it is more than just a phylogenetic species model over-splitting situation. I am aware of temporal differences causing a reproductive isolating mechanism (e.g., spotted skunks) but didn't realize it's at play in giraffes- that's really interesting.
 
In that case, given how promiscuous Mallard are, and how many species of waterfowl they will interbreed with (the only two dabbling ducks which they don't and can't hybridise with are the pair classified within Aix, Mandarin Duck and Wood Duck) there really isn't much hope for convincing you to see logic and preventing you from lumping every single dabbling duck from Shoveller to Baikal Teal and everything in-between into Anas platyrhynchos :p
Mallard x Wood Duck hybrids have in fact been recorded on a number of occasions:

https://ebird.org/species/x00205
 
Untrue. Reticulated, Masai, and Rothschild's giraffes have coexisted in Kenya for hundreds of thousands to millions of years and have not interbred.

From Giraffes: Equals stick together

"At any rate, distance is not the limiting factor that prevents interbreeding among the four giraffe species. "Masai, Reticulated, and Northern Giraffes all occur in East Africa in adjacent regions; yet they almost never interbreed. This is additional evidence of the fact that they are independent species. It is possible that the giraffes' reproduction depends on the rainy season, whose timing differs from one habitat to another," explains Winter. To gain deeper insight into the resulting extremely rare occurrence of hybrids, the team plans to conduct a further study in conjunction with the Kenya Wildlife Service in the near future."

It still suggests that ultimately the giraffes interbreed so rarely here because though in close proximity spatially, they are still separated into non-connecting habitat pockets with different seasonal triggers that make timing their reproduction together uncommon - basically, saying they are not actually living together in the exact same place all the time. I would be interested to see what would happen if you mixed some of the herds up more directly - but giraffes also seem to imprint, to an extent, on the spot pattern of their mothers (and peers in infancy) and this may influence adult mate choice too. I suppose this is enough to separate some related bird species into different species to some people (hooded/carrion crow for example) where the recognition of self is mostly learned rather than innate. I don't find it completely convincing by itself as a measure of species validity, but it is interesting to me because I did not know about these forms living close together. Thank you for tagging me to this thread again!

Re: ducks (also referenced in the giraffe thread), a majority of the numerous mallard hybrids are either less fertile than the parent species or behaviorally maladjusted in ways that reduce reproductive success - since few crosses after the F1 are found in many of these examples - and many more distant ones (like eider crosses) are almost surely sterile. These cannot all be classified together as a species unit even to me. I think because the ability to interbreed is the ancestry condition in any lineage, an inability to do so is a more viable marker for whether two species are distinct anyway. But mallards do have viable multigenerational hybrid populations with some other species like both pacific and american black ducks. This is less well defined in my view.

Even if they may not truly be the same "species", fertile hybrids that can breed with parent lineages or with one another like the mallard or the ruddy x white-headed duck are not really rare, and must surely have occurred with some frequency over evolutionary history. They can have a real, viable position in the tree of life, but one which is difficult for us to categorize. I would still lean toward these species not being truly distinct as different units, because they seem to cross very freely and the hybrids are highly fecund, but only if there is no loss of fertility in the hybrid descendants over time, and not if they can only serve to move genes back into one parent species or the other. The ruddy and white-headed duck are not each other's closest genetic relatives, suggesting (but not confirming) the same level of intermixing is possible between them and other Oxyura (but maybe other species have lost the ancestry condition of being cross-fertile. Any like that would more concretely be distinct!)

For another example, long-term loss in fertility without an outcross to one parent or another in grey wolf x coyote crosses are the main reason I agree they are not simply extreme clinal variations of one species (though they are still quite close, and hybrids viably introduce genes from one species into the other often in Canis.) Without backcrossing, wolf x coyote crosses seem to lose some fertility in subsequent generations, or this was the conclusion of an old study I was aware of (but using inbred stock and domestic dogs in place of wild wolves, may not accurately represent the situation to modern scrutiny.)
 
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