Flight of the elephants documentary

Also had watched it before, I believe the original idea was to send the bull and at least one female to Auckland zoo before they bailed out of the plan!
 
Zorro said:
Also had watched it before, I believe the original idea was to send the bull and at least one female to Auckland zoo before they bailed out of the plan!
Click to expand...

Yes, it was. I believe the female that was meant to be sent to Auckland never left Thailand because she had issues with not responding correctly to keeper commands and seemed a bit hot tempered.

The documentary mentions Thong Dee and Tang Mo came from the same, small village in Thailand. This is different than what Taronga claim on their website, that Thong dee was a street elephant in Bangkok.

Thong Dee seems to be the main elephant in the documentary, little did they know she would be the first to give birth in Australia. :D She is claimed to be 4 years old in around 2004, giving her the birth date of 2000, of which was originally estimated of her.
 
Jambo said:
I recently discovered this pretty cool documentary about the importation of 8 Asian elephants into Taronga zoo, and Melbourne zoo in 2006. I find the documentary really interesting.

What do you guys think of it?


People this may interest: @Zoofan15 , @WhistlingKite24 , @Zorro and @Chlidonias .
Click to expand...

This was fascinating! Thanks for posting it @Jambo, I’d never seen it before. I spent a lot of time trying to identify the elephants but it wasn’t easy, except for Gung (with his tusks) and Thong Dee (with her tushes).

While I was aware that the elephants were quarantined in the Cocos Islands for three months, I had no idea that they had spent two years together in a holding camp prior to this and that the Taronga and Melbourne elephants had all mixed together as one big herd during this time. They looked ecstatic to all see each other when they were reunited after the first plane flight. Given that elephants are renowned for their memories, it’s not hard to imagine the Taronga and Melbourne elephants would recognise each other if ever they were to meet again.

I wonder what determined the decision of who got what elephants. Whether it was predetermined or whether the animal’s emerging personalities played a role. Melbourne Zoo already had an adult female (Mek Kapah) they wanted to be respected as matriarch of their herd; so maybe when Porntip started to emerge as matriarch of this herd, that determined she wouldn’t be going to Melbourne (otherwise she’d clash with Mek Kapah). It was also obvious that whatever elephants Taronga received, they were going to have one of the youngest matriarchs in the world (as the eldest elephants in this group were 14), so maybe they chose the elephant they felt suited this role best.

Of the seven females, there were three young adults and four juveniles so perhaps it was also thought the juveniles should at least be split two and two between the zoos (Thong Dee and Tang Mo to Taronga; Kulab and Num Oi to Melbourne) so they would have the company of at least one other juvenile. Sending all four juveniles to Taronga would have meant sending three young adults (including the emerging matriarch) to Melbourne, which may have proved too much for Mek Kapah.
 
Jambo said:
Thong Dee seems to be the main elephant in the documentary, little did they know she would be the first to give birth in Australia. :D She is claimed to be 4 years old in around 2004, giving her the birth date of 2000, of which was originally estimated of her.
Click to expand...

I still believe this age estimate was more realistic than the revaluation that placed her as three years older. Thong Dee looks four years old in the early documentary footage, not seven. I believe the revaluation followed an outcry by animal rights groups over Thong Dee’s first pregnancy as they believed seven years of age was too young for Thong Dee to conceive. Interestingly, Melbourne Zoo successfully performed AI on Kulab when she was only eight and this went almost completely unnoticed by animal rights groups.
 
Zoofan15 said:
This was fascinating! Thanks for posting it @Jambo, I’d never seen it before. I spent a lot of time trying to identify the elephants but it wasn’t easy, except for Gung (with his tusks) and Thong Dee (with her tushes).

While I was aware that the elephants were quarantined in the Cocos Islands for three months, I had no idea that they had spent two years together in a holding camp prior to this and that the Taronga and Melbourne elephants had all mixed together as one big herd during this time. They looked ecstatic to all see each other when they were reunited after the first plane flight. Given that elephants are renowned for their memories, it’s not hard to imagine the Taronga and Melbourne elephants would recognise each other if ever they were to meet again.

I wonder what determined the decision of who got what elephants. Whether it was predetermined or whether the animal’s emerging personalities played a role. Melbourne Zoo already had an adult female (Mek Kapah) they wanted to be respected as matriarch of their herd; so maybe when Porntip started to emerge as matriarch of this herd, that determined she wouldn’t be going to Melbourne (otherwise she’d clash with Mek Kapah). It was also obvious that whatever elephants Taronga received, they were going to have one of the youngest matriarchs in the world (as the eldest elephants in this group were 14), so maybe they chose the elephant they felt suited this role best.

Of the seven females, there were three young adults and four juveniles so perhaps it was also thought the juveniles should at least be split two and two between the zoos (Thong Dee and Tang Mo to Taronga; Kulab and Num Oi to Melbourne) so they would have the company of at least one other juvenile. Sending all four juveniles to Taronga would have meant sending three young adults (including the emerging matriarch) to Melbourne, which may have proved too much for Mek Kapah.
Click to expand...

Yes, they were at a holding camp for quite a lot of time. I could only identify Thong Dee, Num-oi and Gung. With Num-oi, she is bald and has quite a lot of pink pigmentation on her face and she looks a but like Anjalee at Auckland.

I think giving Taronga two of Melbourne’s females would be a right way to go. Most likely Num-oi or Kulab, who are great friends with each other. This will give Taronga 3 breeding females, and leave Melbourne with 2, Dokkon and Mali.

Well, Lucy Melo (a keeper at Taronga) was working with Thong Dee right from the start so it was obvious Thong Dee would be going there. Her closest companion was Tang Mo, since they came from the same village so that would also mean Tang Mo would go to Taronga. This would mean the other two juveniles, Num-oi and Kulab would be sent to Melbourne. They would have 3 females left. Porntip, as you said was most likely matriarch, so would be sent to Taronga, to give Mek Kapah the matriarchal role at Melbourne. Her best friend out of Pak Boon and Dokkoon would then be sent with Porntip to Taronga whilst the other to Melbourne; and I guess Pak Boon had the closest bond to Porntip rather than Dokkoon.
 
Jambo said:
Yes, they were at a holding camp for quite a lot of time. I could only identify Thong Dee, Num-oi and Gung. With Num-oi, she is bald and has quite a lot of pink pigmentation on her face and she looks a but like Anjalee at Auckland.

I think giving Taronga two of Melbourne’s females would be a right way to go. Most likely Num-oi or Kulab, who are great friends with each other. This will give Taronga 3 breeding females, and leave Melbourne with 2, Dokkon and Mali.

Well, Lucy Melo (a keeper at Taronga) was working with Thong Dee right from the start so it was obvious Thong Dee would be going there. Her closest companion was Tang Mo, since they came from the same village so that would also mean Tang Mo would go to Taronga. This would mean the other two juveniles, Num-oi and Kulab would be sent to Melbourne. They would have 3 females left. Porntip, as you said was most likely matriarch, so would be sent to Taronga, to give Mek Kapah the matriarchal role at Melbourne. Her best friend out of Pak Boon and Dokkoon would then be sent with Porntip to Taronga whilst the other to Melbourne; and I guess Pak Boon had the closest bond to Porntip rather than Dokkoon.
Click to expand...

Considering Melbourne Zoo are limited on space and have four young females who really should be breeding, I think it’s time to either split the herd. Like you say, Kulab and Num Oi are close friends; and so are Mek Kapah and Dokkoon. Dokoon and Mali obviously have a very close bond also.

I’m also wondering if TWPZ has space for Kulab and Num Oi, then they’d have natural breeding options. With the unfortunate death of Tukta last year, Taronga Zoo has been reduced to just one breeding female as I don’t believe Tang Mo will ever carry a calf to term based on her reproductive history; so unless they import more females, then there’s not much call for a bull. With EEHV being something zoo’s still don’t fully understand, there may be a reluctance to send cows there with the intention of them producing calves, in case they too contract it from one of the adults.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Considering Melbourne Zoo are limited on space and have four young females who really should be breeding, I think it’s time to either split the herd. Like you say, Kulab and Num Oi are close friends; and so are Mek Kapah and Dokkoon. Dokoon and Mali obviously have a very close bond also.

I’m also wondering if TWPZ has space for Kulab and Num Oi, then they’d have natural breeding options. With the unfortunate death of Tukta last year, Taronga Zoo has been reduced to just one breeding female as I don’t believe Tang Mo will ever carry a calf to term based on her reproductive history; so unless they import more females, then there’s not much call for a bull. With EEHV being something zoo’s still don’t fully understand, there may be a reluctance to send cows there with the intention of them producing calves, in case they too contract it from one of the adults.
Click to expand...

I agree. Kulab and Num-oi could also go to Auckland to replace the not yet arrived Nandi whilst either Luk chai/ Pathi Harn could arrive to breed with Anjalee, Kulab and Num-oi.

I believe TWPZ have 3 enclosures, at the moment. 1 for Thong Dee, Porntip, Sabai and Kanlaya, one for Gigi and Burma, and one for Luk Chai and Pathi Harn. I also believe Gung rotates the exhibit with Luk Chai and Pathi Harn, while also spending some of his time with the young bulls. I think, because of the lack of space at the moment, it wouldn’t be wise to send Kulab and Num-oi there.

Tukta contracting EEHV literally came out of nowhere. I can’t seem to find where. Pak Boon’s TB that she had may have contributed to it as she had it when Tukta was born, giving Tukta a weak immune system? What do you think?
 
Jambo said:
I agree. Kulab and Num-oi could also go to Auckland to replace the not yet arrived Nandi whilst either Luk chai/ Pathi Harn could arrive to breed with Anjalee, Kulab and Num-oi.

I believe TWPZ have 3 enclosures, at the moment. 1 for Thong Dee, Porntip, Sabai and Kanlaya, one for Gigi and Burma, and one for Luk Chai and Pathi Harn. I also believe Gung rotates the exhibit with Luk Chai and Pathi Harn, while also spending some of his time with the young bulls. I think, because of the lack of space at the moment, it wouldn’t be wise to send Kulab and Num-oi there.

Tukta contracting EEHV literally came out of nowhere. I can’t seem to find where. Pak Boon’s TB that she had may have contributed to it as she had it when Tukta was born, giving Tukta a weak immune system? What do you think?
Click to expand...

That's a really good idea to send Kulab and Num Oi to Auckland Zoo as it seems more and more unlikely Nandi will ever arrive. In addition, both are young females who have never been a matriach (and are probably quite low in the hierachy of their herd) so neither should clash with Burma. Both were in full contact with keepers until a few years ago, so they could probably adjust to full contact (which they do at Auckland) again without any issues. In my opinion, Auckland Zoo have one of the best elephant husbandry programmes in the world. In a sense, the whole zoo is their exhibit with many other exhibits they go in (baboon and lion moats etc.) and non public areas of the zoo (bush) etc.

I'm not sure if that affected it, but it's certainly a possibility. I hope Jai Dee doesn't contract it. There's been suggestion that a larger age gap between calves prolongs weaning (mother's antibodies are supposed to offer protection) but there were 6 years between Pak Boon's calves so Tukta was long weaned when Pak Boon gave birth to Jai Dee. I wonder if Taronga will do AI with Pak Boon soon?

Melbourne Zoo are looking at some long interbirth intervals with their females, especially Kulab, who last gave birth 2010. :(
 
Zoofan15 said:
That's a really good idea to send Kulab and Num Oi to Auckland Zoo as it seems more and more unlikely Nandi will ever arrive. In addition, both are young females who have never been a matriach (and are probably quite low in the hierachy of their herd) so neither should clash with Burma. Both were in full contact with keepers until a few years ago, so they could probably adjust to full contact (which they do at Auckland) again without any issues. In my opinion, Auckland Zoo have one of the best elephant husbandry programmes in the world. In a sense, the whole zoo is their exhibit with many other exhibits they go in (baboon and lion moats etc.) and non public areas of the zoo (bush) etc.

I'm not sure if that affected it, but it's certainly a possibility. I hope Jai Dee doesn't contract it. There's been suggestion that a larger age gap between calves prolongs weaning (mother's antibodies are supposed to offer protection) but there were 6 years between Pak Boon's calves so Tukta was long weaned when Pak Boon gave birth to Jai Dee. I wonder if Taronga will do AI with Pak Boon soon?

Melbourne Zoo are looking at some long interbirth intervals with their females, especially Kulab, who last gave birth 2010. :(
Click to expand...

Auckland zoo do have a great husbandry program. They walk every day around the zoo and spend time in the baboon and lion moats, as you said. A great source of exercise and enrichment.

I think that with the import of two females and a male, the barn would have to be enlarged and another exhibit built. Their enclosure though is massive, and is probably the same size as one at TWPZ. Space though is something to think about. A second enclosure could be built on the existing sight of the baboon exhibit, though the zoo will have a huge loss with baboons no longer at the zoo, as I can’t find somewhere else for them to go. I was thinking, if the baboons were to move, than they could move to the saimang enclosure which would be empty after the saimangs move to Wild Asia. This would encourage the baboons to climb.

It will be interesting to see which way they go with their elephant herd in the future. An export of the group to TWPZ means that they may put that herd, at TWPZ at risk of EEHV. I wouldn’t risk importing any more breeding elephants to Taronga, or exporting them to another facility with elephants. I would say, that if they wanted to continue breeding than AI would be the only way. So lets hope they AI Pak Boon soon.

Do you think that Taronga originally seperated their calves by at least 5 or 6 years on purpose, to make sure that their females antibodies offer protection to their calves until they stop weaning? It would make sense......
 
I'm surprised for all the praise of Auckland!

When it comes to elephants, Auckland Zoos history and actions (or lack thereof) raise very strong suspicions with me that despite all the PR they spin, Auckland have only ever wanted exactly what they've got - two non-breeding, docile and easy-to-manage females for display.

Rather than sending more precious animals there I'd argue they ought to be pressured to send their elephants to Australia!
 
Jambo said:
Auckland zoo do have a great husbandry program. They walk every day around the zoo and spend time in the baboon and lion moats, as you said. A great source of exercise and enrichment.

I think that with the import of two females and a male, the barn would have to be enlarged and another exhibit built. Their enclosure though is massive, and is probably the same size as one at TWPZ. Space though is something to think about. A second enclosure could be built on the existing sight of the baboon exhibit, though the zoo will have a huge loss with baboons no longer at the zoo, as I can’t find somewhere else for them to go. I was thinking, if the baboons were to move, than they could move to the saimang enclosure which would be empty after the saimangs move to Wild Asia. This would encourage the baboons to climb.

It will be interesting to see which way they go with their elephant herd in the future. An export of the group to TWPZ means that they may put that herd, at TWPZ at risk of EEHV. I wouldn’t risk importing any more breeding elephants to Taronga, or exporting them to another facility with elephants. I would say, that if they wanted to continue breeding than AI would be the only way. So lets hope they AI Pak Boon soon.

Do you think that Taronga originally seperated their calves by at least 5 or 6 years on purpose, to make sure that their females antibodies offer protection to their calves until they stop weaning? It would make sense......
Click to expand...

I'd hate to see Auckland Zoo lose their baboons, especially now Wellington Zoo don't have them. It's especially exciting to see large troops of them. I'm actually a little worried about Auckland's troop as they haven't bred for quite a few years now, though the exhibit could surely accomodate more. I'm very curious to see what will occupy the old Siamang exhibit, though my money is on a South American species.

I think the large age gaps were more to do with concern over where to place them in the future, especially if more male calves were born. The age gaps they had were likely the largest they could afford without running the risk of the reproductive issues that are associated with long periods (10 years +) of non breeding. Between the births of the three calves in 2009-2010 and the next lots of calves in 2015-2017, there were significant efforts to breed from Tang Mo. Identifiying her reproductive issues seemed to coincide with breeding from the first three females again as the space they had allocated for Tang Mo's potential calf could be reallocated (likely to Jai Dee) as plans to move Porntip, Thong Dee and calves to TWPZ would have been in place for a while prior to their move.
 
Do you guys feel that the second elephant that was wanted by Auckland zoo will ever be obtained I would of thought bringing the two out together would of been much better option when the animal rights people now get a second go at getting it stopped?
 
Zoofan15 said:
I'd hate to see Auckland Zoo lose their baboons, especially now Wellington Zoo don't have them. It's especially exciting to see large troops of them. I'm actually a little worried about Auckland's troop as they haven't bred for quite a few years now, though the exhibit could surely accomodate more. I'm very curious to see what will occupy the old Siamang exhibit, though my money is on a South American species.

I think the large age gaps were more to do with concern over where to place them in the future, especially if more male calves were born. The age gaps they had were likely the largest they could afford without running the risk of the reproductive issues that are associated with long periods (10 years +) of non breeding. Between the births of the three calves in 2009-2010 and the next lots of calves in 2015-2017, there were significant efforts to breed from Tang Mo. Identifiying her reproductive issues seemed to coincide with breeding from the first three females again as the space they had allocated for Tang Mo's potential calf could be reallocated (likely to Jai Dee) as plans to move Porntip, Thong Dee and calves to TWPZ would have been in place for a while prior to their move.
Click to expand...

Yes, Auckland do have a great troop. Their last baby was born in 2011, so I don’t know if Auckland have decided to stop their baboons from breeding. They are the last baboons in New Zealand, so lets hope for the best. I believe the only baboon troop that is thriving is Melbourne, which numbers about 30 individuals. A very dynamic and active troop to see.

I believe capuchin could go into the saimang enclosure. Another thought is Macaw and Sun conures. It is a pretty large meshed enclosure, with an array of plantation so the birds would thrive in there. It would certainly be an upgrade from the cages they live in now.

Yes in 2011, just months after Tukta was born Taronga started exploring Tang Mo falling pregnant. By 2012, they reverted to AI and by 2014, I think they just gave up as she was 15 years old. They then attempted to AI Porntip most likely so she could fall pregnant before Gung (was originally meant to be exported) left to TWPZ. This AI attempt failed, but I don’t know why they did AI on her instead of her naturally mating with Gung??
 
Zorro said:
Do you guys feel that the second elephant that was wanted by Auckland zoo will ever be obtained I would of thought bringing the two out together would of been much better option when the animal rights people now get a second go at getting it stopped?
Click to expand...

Seeing its taken almost 4 years to import her, I would say no. The 8 asian elephants from Thailand almost never arrived, before finally arriving after 2 years of protests which was lucky. Auckland didn’t plan to do it, but importing Nandi and Anjalee together would’ve been a better idea. Does anyone have an updates on the situation or Nandi?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top