Flight of the elephants documentary

Jambo said:
Yes, Auckland do have a great troop. Their last baby was born in 2011, so I don’t know if Auckland have decided to stop their baboons from breeding. They are the last baboons in New Zealand, so lets hope for the best. I believe the only baboon troop that is thriving is Melbourne, which numbers about 30 individuals. A very dynamic and active troop to see.

I believe capuchin could go into the saimang enclosure. Another thought is Macaw and Sun conures. It is a pretty large meshed enclosure, with an array of plantation so the birds would thrive in there. It would certainly be an upgrade from the cages they live in now.

Yes in 2011, just months after Tukta was born Taronga started exploring Tang Mo falling pregnant. By 2012, they reverted to AI and by 2014, I think they just gave up as she was 15 years old. They then attempted to AI Porntip most likely so she could fall pregnant before Gung (was originally meant to be exported) left to TWPZ. This AI attempt failed, but I don’t know why they did AI on her instead of her naturally mating with Gung??
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The female baboons at Auckland were all on contraception last I heard. The two eldest females are getting on in years (17 and 18) so won’t be reproductive for much longer and Naeemah (born 2011) is closely related to all the males in the troop. I’d love to see Melbourne’s troop. Adelaide’s has struggled to expand thanks to the adolescent male, Tomkay. Darling Downs Zoo also hold Hamadryas baboon but I’m not sure how many?

I know initially Gung was too short to reach Porntip to breed her naturally, which is why they did AI in 2008; but this shouldn’t have been an issue by the time she was ready to conceive again and Gung had grown. Maybe the plan was always to do AI using the Perth bull; but Gung was kept until Thong Dee was pregnant (naturally) again and far enough into her pregnancy.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Darling Downs Zoo also hold Hamadryas baboon but I’m not sure how many?
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I believe Darling Downs Zoo currently hold their original male (been there for many years), two females from Warsaw Zoo and two to three females from Alma Park Zoo. They have been breeding very successfully (roughly five to seven births) in the past few years. Their youngest offspring was only a few days/ weeks old, during my visit in December 2018.
Baboon Family Scene | ZooChat
In addition to this, Wildlife HQ hold five individuals (a male born at Alma Park Zoo, ‘Tehuti’ and four females, ‘Genie’, ‘Layla’, ‘Zola’ and ‘Abeiba’). The youngest member is of the group is ‘Zola’ (born 2014). I think I read somewhere that they recieved some females from Auckland Zoo, but I cannot confirm it.
Alma Park Zoo’s original breeding male, ‘Scooby’ moved to Crocodylus Park to accompany his father ‘Dolus’. I’m not sure of the status of these baboons, but Crocodylus should only have 2:0 (father and son).
 
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Zoofan15 said:
The female baboons at Auckland were all on contraception last I heard. The two eldest females are getting on in years (17 and 18) so won’t be reproductive for much longer and Naeemah (born 2011) is closely related to all the males in the troop. I’d love to see Melbourne’s troop. Adelaide’s has struggled to expand thanks to the adolescent male, Tomkay. Darling Downs Zoo also hold Hamadryas baboon but I’m not sure how many?

I know initially Gung was too short to reach Porntip to breed her naturally, which is why they did AI in 2008; but this shouldn’t have been an issue by the time she was ready to conceive again and Gung had grown. Maybe the plan was always to do AI using the Perth bull; but Gung was kept until Thong Dee was pregnant (naturally) again and far enough into her pregnancy.
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Thong Dee would have fallen pregnant in late December/ January 2014/15. She left 3 months later, so i’m guessing the minute they found out Thong Dee was pregnant, they moved her within a few weeks.

I wonder who was the donor in the 2014 AI on Porntip. I have a feeling it was the Perth bull as Num-oi underwent an AI procedure that August; later giving birth to Willow, sired by Putra Mas in 2016.

The original idea was to send Thong Dee and Porntip back to Taronga after Luk Chai and Pathi Harn matured enough for them to seperate their mothers. Do you think this will happen now that Sabai and Kanlaya have been born?

An idea will be to export Taronga’s elephants to TWPZ and phase out their keeping of elephants entirely. If they do want to keep them, then I think a surplus herd of up to 4 could live there. Once at TWPZ, the females could be reunited with one another alongside the younger 3 elephants, who were born within 18 months of each other. It will also solve the problem of what to do with Jai dee when he gets older.

WhistlingKite24 said:
I believe Darling Downs Zoo currently hold their original male (been there for many years), two females from Warsaw Zoo and two to three females from Alma Park Zoo. They have been breeding very successfully (roughly five to seven births) in the past few years. Their youngest offspring was only a few days/ weeks old, during my visit in December 2018.
Baboon Family Scene | ZooChat
In addition to this, Wildlife HQ hold five individuals (a male born at Alma Park Zoo, ‘Tehuti’ and four females, ‘Genie’, ‘Layla’, ‘Zola’ and ‘Abeiba’). The youngest member is of the group is ‘Zola’ (born 2014). I think I read somewhere that they recieved some females from Auckland Zoo, but I cannot confirm it.
Alma Park Zoo’s original breeding male, ‘Scooby’ moved to Crocodylus Park to accompany his father ‘Dolus’. I’m not sure of the status of these baboons, but Crocodylus should only have 2:0 (father and son).
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Yes, Darling Downs zoo do have a very successful troop. I’ll have to visit them one day. :)

I never heard of Auckland sending any of their female baboons to Wildlife Hq? I am eager to find out if they did so I will be researching to try find anything about it. ;)
 
Jambo said:
Thong Dee would have fallen pregnant in late December/ January 2014/15. She left 3 months later, so i’m guessing the minute they found out Thong Dee was pregnant, they moved her within a few weeks.

I wonder who was the donor in the 2014 AI on Porntip. I have a feeling it was the Perth bull as Num-oi underwent an AI procedure that August; later giving birth to Willow, sired by Putra Mas in 2016.

The original idea was to send Thong Dee and Porntip back to Taronga after Luk Chai and Pathi Harn matured enough for them to seperate their mothers. Do you think this will happen now that Sabai and Kanlaya have been born?

An idea will be to export Taronga’s elephants to TWPZ and phase out their keeping of elephants entirely. If they do want to keep them, then I think a surplus herd of up to 4 could live there. Once at TWPZ, the females could be reunited with one another alongside the younger 3 elephants, who were born within 18 months of each other. It will also solve the problem of what to do with Jai dee when he gets older.



Yes, Darling Downs zoo do have a very successful troop. I’ll have to visit them one day. :)

I never heard of Auckland sending any of their female baboons to Wildlife Hq? I am eager to find out if they did so I will be researching to try find anything about it. ;)
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I remember reading in 2014 that AI had been done (unsuccessfully with Porntip). I'll try and find that source and see if it mentions who the bull was. I agree it makes sense that it was Putra Mas as the following year, Porntip conceived Kanlaya through AI. Bong Su was well represented by that stage and there would have been no reason to use Gung for AI, when they could have bred him naturally with Porntip in 2014.

Prior to Tukta's death from EEHV, I thought the best way to go was to send Pak Boon, Tukta and Jai Dee to TWPZ; and return Porntip and Kanlaya to TZ to live with Tang Mo. This would allow the male calves, Sabai and Jai Dee chance to bond, so they could live as a bachelor herd down the line and both get to know the adolescent bulls, Luk Chai and Pathi Harn. Following Tukta's death, I'd be reluctant to see any switching but long term think the best way to go would be to have Gung and the five females: Porntip, Pak Boon, Thong Dee, Tang Mo and Kanlaya at TWPZ; and the boys: Luk Chai, Pathi Harn, Sabai and Jai Dee at TZ (with one or more sent to other zoos if required for breeding i.e. Auckland Zoo). Melbourne Zoo could do with a new breeding bull also, though I think Putra Mas will most likely go there upon the death of Tricia at Perth Zoo and their phase out of Asian elephants.

Re. the Hamadryas baboons. I'm near certain the females at Wildlife HQ are not from Auckland, unless their names have been changed. At my last count, Auckland Zoo had 4.5 Hamadryas baboons so unless they've 'done a Wellington Zoo' and exported their females, I doubt they'd upset their gender balance ratio which is actually a little high on males.
 
Zoofan15 said:
I remember reading in 2014 that AI had been done (unsuccessfully with Porntip). I'll try and find that source and see if it mentions who the bull was. I agree it makes sense that it was Putra Mas as the following year, Porntip conceived Kanlaya through AI. Bong Su was well represented by that stage and there would have been no reason to use Gung for AI, when they could have bred him naturally with Porntip in 2014.

Prior to Tukta's death from EEHV, I thought the best way to go was to send Pak Boon, Tukta and Jai Dee to TWPZ; and return Porntip and Kanlaya to TZ to live with Tang Mo. This would allow the male calves, Sabai and Jai Dee chance to bond, so they could live as a bachelor herd down the line and both get to know the adolescent bulls, Luk Chai and Pathi Harn. Following Tukta's death, I'd be reluctant to see any switching but long term think the best way to go would be to have Gung and the five females: Porntip, Pak Boon, Thong Dee, Tang Mo and Kanlaya at TWPZ; and the boys: Luk Chai, Pathi Harn, Sabai and Jai Dee at TZ (with one or more sent to other zoos if required for breeding i.e. Auckland Zoo). Melbourne Zoo could do with a new breeding bull also, though I think Putra Mas will most likely go there upon the death of Tricia at Perth Zoo and their phase out of Asian elephants.

Re. the Hamadryas baboons. I'm near certain the females at Wildlife HQ are not from Auckland, unless their names have been changed. At my last count, Auckland Zoo had 4.5 Hamadryas baboons so unless they've 'done a Wellington Zoo' and exported their females, I doubt they'd upset their gender balance ratio which is actually a little high on males.
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I like your ideas. :)

I would say keeping surplus animals at Taronga zoo is a good idea. I don’t think Taronga is an ideal place to breed elephants. Exporting Luk Chai and Pathi Harn there as a swap for Pak Boon, Tang Mo and Jai Dee. This will give Jai Dee the ability to unite with Kanlaya and Sabai. Gung will then be given a chance to breed with Thong Dee, Porntip (hopefully) and Pak Boon who will give birth to calves from 2022. Jai Dee and Sabai will then be exported to Taronga to replace Luk Chai and Pathi Harn, once they have left to other zoos to breed; one of the males to Auckland, and the other to a zoo in Europe or America.

Man Jai could also be sent to join Sabai and Jai dee at Taronga. This leaves Melbourne with Putra Mas and the females, Mek Kapah, Dokkoon, Kulab, Num-oi and Mali. All should breed soon (I mean Very soon). Kulab is going at a 11 year gap between calves, Dokkoon a 8 year gap and Num-oi, a 6 year gap. It would be great to see Num-oi raise a successful. Melbourne will have to get a move on. :p

Regarding the baboons, I wouldn’t have thought Auckland would export their female baboons. @WhistlingKite24 , where did you get this information from?
 
Thanks @Jambo for sharing this documentary. I've had the opportunity to watch it before and I enjoyed watching it once again. The Taronga and Melbourne Zoo's journey to import eight young Asian elephants from Thailand was very fascinating. Also, it was very interesting to learn that originally nine elephants were suppose to be imported to Australia as well as New Zealand.

I like your breeding and transfer recommendations @Jambo and @Zoofan15. Here are my thoughts on the future of the Australian Asian elephant population:

Taronga Western Plains Zoo:
1.0 Gung 2000.00.00
1.0 Sabai (Gung x Thong Dee) 2016.11.02
1.0 Jai Dee (Gung x Pak Boon) 2017.05.26
0.1 Burma 1954.00.00
0.1 Porntip 1992.00.00
0.1 Pak Boon 1992.00.00
0.1 Tang Mo 1999.00.00
0.1 Thong Dee 2000.00.00
0.1 Kanlaya (Putra Mas x Porntip) 2018.06.14

By transferring Pak Boon, Tango Mo, and Jai Dee to TWPZ, it'll enable Pak Boon and Tang Mo to breed with Gung. In addition, it'll enable Jai Dee to socialize with Sabai and Kanlaya. Once Thong Dee and Pak Boon are pregnant again, Sabai and Jai Dee should be transferred to TZ to join the bachelor herd.

Melbourne Zoo:
1.0 Putra Mas 1989.00.00
0.1 Mek Kapah 1973.00.00
0.1 Dokkoon 1993.00.00
0.1 Kulab 2000.00.00
0.1 Num Oi 2001.00.00
0.1 Mali (Bong Su x Dokkoon) 2010.01.16

By transferring Putra Mas to MZ, it'll enable Putra Mas to breed with Dokkoon, Kulab, Num Oi, and Mali.

Taronga Zoo:
1.0 Luk Chai (Gung x Thong Dee) 2009.07.04
1.0 Pathi Harn (Bong Su x Porntip) 2010.03.10
1.0 Man Jai (Bong Su x Dokkoon) 2013.12.08

By transferring Luk Chai, Pathi Harn, and Man Jai to TZ, it'll enable the three of them to form a bachelor herd. In addition, it'll open space for TWPZ and MZ to breed their elephants. Sabai and Jai Dee will join the bachelor herd once their mothers are pregnant again.

Auckland Zoo:
0.1 Burma 1982.00.00
0.1 Permai 1989.00.00
0.1 Anjalee (Jayathu x Mayuri) 2006.08.23

By transferring Permai to AZ, it'll enable the Auckland Zoo to have a herd of three elephants and provide Permai with greater socialization. Artifical insemination should be considered for Anjalee as the zoo doesn't have the space to house a matriarchal herd as well as a bull. Putra Mas, Luk Chai, and Pathi Harn are primary AI donors for Anjalee.
 
Elephant Enthusiast said:
Thanks @Jambo for sharing this documentary. I've had the opportunity to watch it before and I enjoyed watching it once again. The Taronga and Melbourne Zoo's journey to import eight young Asian elephants from Thailand was very fascinating. Also, it was very interesting to learn that originally nine elephants were suppose to be imported to Australia as well as New Zealand.

I like your breeding and transfer recommendations @Jambo and @Zoofan15. Here are my thoughts on the future of the Australian Asian elephant population:

Taronga Western Plains Zoo:
1.0 Gung 2000.00.00
1.0 Sabai (Gung x Thong Dee) 2016.11.02
1.0 Jai Dee (Gung x Pak Boon) 2017.05.26
0.1 Burma 1954.00.00
0.1 Porntip 1992.00.00
0.1 Pak Boon 1992.00.00
0.1 Tang Mo 1999.00.00
0.1 Thong Dee 2000.00.00
0.1 Kanlaya (Putra Mas x Porntip) 2018.06.14

By transferring Pak Boon, Tango Mo, and Jai Dee to TWPZ, it'll enable Pak Boon and Tang Mo to breed with Gung. In addition, it'll enable Jai Dee to socialize with Sabai and Kanlaya. Once Thong Dee and Pak Boon are pregnant again, Sabai and Jai Dee should be transferred to TZ to join the bachelor herd.

Melbourne Zoo:
1.0 Putra Mas 1989.00.00
0.1 Mek Kapah 1973.00.00
0.1 Dokkoon 1993.00.00
0.1 Kulab 2000.00.00
0.1 Num Oi 2001.00.00
0.1 Mali (Bong Su x Dokkoon) 2010.01.16

By transferring Putra Mas to MZ, it'll enable Putra Mas to breed with Dokkoon, Kulab, Num Oi, and Mali.

Taronga Zoo:
1.0 Luk Chai (Gung x Thong Dee) 2009.07.04
1.0 Pathi Harn (Bong Su x Porntip) 2010.03.10
1.0 Man Jai (Bong Su x Dokkoon) 2013.12.08

By transferring Luk Chai, Pathi Harn, and Man Jai to TZ, it'll enable the three of them to form a bachelor herd. In addition, it'll open space for TWPZ and MZ to breed their elephants. Sabai and Jai Dee will join the bachelor herd once their mothers are pregnant again.

Auckland Zoo:
0.1 Burma 1982.00.00
0.1 Permai 1989.00.00
0.1 Anjalee (Jayathu x Mayuri) 2006.08.23

By transferring Permai to AZ, it'll enable the Auckland Zoo to have a herd of three elephants and provide Permai with greater socialization. Artifical insemination should be considered for Anjalee as the zoo doesn't have the space to house a matriarchal herd as well as a bull. Putra Mas, Luk Chai, and Pathi Harn are primary AI donors for Anjalee.
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Great plan @Elephant Enthusiast! It looks like we're all more or less on the same page with our ideas and recommendations. :)
 
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