The number of Orangs in the region must be getting quite small at the current time?.
Melbourne Zoo Future of Melbourne Zoo 2022 (Speculation / Fantasy)
- Thread starter austrlain zoo gower
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Yes it has dwindled over the last decade with numerous exports, several deaths and only one surviving birth.
The current regional population is:
2.1 Bornean orangutan
5.9 Sumatran orangutan
1.2 Hybrid orangutan
With the exception of Perth Zoo who hold a colony of eight, the other five holders hold each hold either a pair or a trio.
Its seems about the same Patton as the gorilla situation, export young females and hold in only 2 zoos (not including mogo as they are only fairly resent holders).
Its seems about the same Patton as the gorilla situation, export young females and hold in only 2 zoos (not including mogo as they are only fairly resent holders).
You’re right. For years, it was only Taronga and Melbourne breeding gorillas before they were joined by three non breeding holders: Werribee (2011), Mogo (2013) and Orana (2015) - with Mogo now breeding.
I’m not expecting any gorilla births at Taronga or Melbourne until the former construct their Congo complex (and take Mbeli off contraception); and the latter import some young females (Kimya is clearly struggling to conceive under the current conditions).
Chimpanzees are at least thriving in the region - by virtue of being able to hold them in large troops without issue. There’s been numerous births across multiple facilities in recent years - as there has been in the past.
I am somewhat surprised that our region doesn’t have a self sustaining population seeing the number of major zoos we have what are we doing wrong considering that there are excess in both Europe and the US
I would assume food costs would be the main deterrent. A male gorilla can eat up to 18kg of food a day versus a chimpanzee which eats up to 2kg. Wellington Zoo have named chimpanzees as their most expensive species to feed and even a small troop of gorillas would cost more than a medium sized troop of chimpanzees.
Factor in the public perception that gorillas need large exhibits, the cost of infrastructure to contain a species of their strength and the historical lack of available gorillas and then the result is a slow regional uptake.
Within New Zealand, Hamilton Zoo wouldn’t consider them because of cost; and Wellington Zoo because of space. Auckland Zoo represents the best chance of exhibiting them (in place of the elephants) at this point in time.
I guess if this is the current mindset the region will never have a self sustaining population
Agreed. Unfortunately I don’t think the numbers are there to maintain a self sustaining population of Western lowland gorillas and therefore we’ll remain an extension of the European population.
They’ll be minimal transfers between the zoos. I believe the juvenile female at Taronga will go to Melbourne for example and new bachelor holders will likely be supplied with males from within the region, but otherwise we’ll more or less be breeding only what we can accomodate as genetically important individuals will remain in Europe and our over represented stock will be in low demand outside of the region.
I also believe it’ll become increasingly common for zoos to accomodate their own surplus on site. Taronga are building two new exhibits (one to house bachelors from the exisiting troop); and Adelaide/Monarto may jointly house this species - either one breeding/one bachelor; or Monarto holding both within a larger complex.
Swanson02
Well-Known Member
A troop of Gorillas, combined with a pygmy hippo pair, imo would have the same if not a larger draw than Auckland's elephants. Extending the savanna or building a 'sustainability' playground won't draw in more visitors and Auckland would probably see a net loss in ticket sales.
Additionally, Adelaide/Monarto also has an interest in Gorillas so if Adelaide and Auckland join the program we could see 5 breeding and 4 bachelor troops in a decade or twos time.
Also on Chimpanzees, is it also safe to say Chimps are much more resilient in a zoo setting than Gorillas and Orangutans? For example how often are chimp infants rejected by their mothers? I also feel they generally seem to have fewer birthing difficulties too.
If Auckland did add gorillas and pygmy hippos a trio of Bongos would fit nicely and also become another holder for the region!
If Adelaide does go ahead with the plan to hold gorillas that could make a big difference to the regional population, more options are needed on hand here for the long term!
Auckland Zoo would be incredibly foolish to extend their Savannah exhibits in response to the elephants leaving. It was the most underwhelming idea I’ve ever heard and not only would the visitors not appreciate it, I’d go as far to say they’d resent it.
A replacement species is the expectation and a return of the zoo’s beloved hippos (albeit in Pygmy form) combined with gorillas as you suggest would be a high profile attraction. Though Burma is much loved, there’s only so much appeal a single elephant in a field can have.
Yes, chimpanzees are more resilient on the whole - though I’d say that’s as much by virtue of there being a large number reproducing compared to orangutans.
Taronga have had two infants rejected by their mothers in the past five years and there’s been stillbirths/neonatal deaths at Rockhampton and Monarto within that time frame. Generally speaking, the incidences of stillbirths are lower in adolescent and prime aged females.
The Adelaide/Monarto combination will hopefully add a breeding troop and bachelor troop to the region. A small breeding troop could contribute bachelors to this troop along with Mogo or Taronga from their next cohort.
Bachelor troops work best with males that are close in age (introduced as juveniles/adolescents) and with all zoos in the region breeding smaller numbers of infants, it’ll be rare for a zoo to produce cohorts like we’ve seen at Taronga in the past.
At this point in time, Taronga, Melbourne and Mogo each have a troop consisting of a single breeding female (grouped with non breeding females).
That’s a nice idea but I doubt Melbourne would send Gabby elsewhere. As of late she’s provided a great companion for Malu, as she’s beginning to spend less time away from her mother, Kiani, of whom she was previously very close too. I assume they might be just giving Kiani some alone time in her twilight years, especially with her arthritis deteriorating.
Years and years ago, I was told by a keeper that Dewi was actually going to be used for breeding in the future, with Malu as a non breeding male- hence his grouping with Kiani and Gabby; but I assume this has all changed as Dewi’s since been sent over to Sydney with her parents.
That makes sense as the current recommendation is to breed female orangutans and chimpanzees for the first time around the age of 15-16 years old (as opposed to 8-9 years old).
Santan is 45 years old and the eldest male orangutan in Australasia. By the time Dewi hits her mid teens, he may well have passed - which would be the obvious time to import a male to pair with Dewi; with her mother (non-breeding) ideally remaining in a grouping with them.
In any case, the transfer to Sydney of the three orangutans represented a chance to keep together a cohesive 1.2 grouping, with Maimunah and Dewi hopefully continuing to cohabit together without issue.
It was surprising to see those three go though; rather than the two hybrids (and Malu) - but I imagine Kiani's arthritis probably played a part in her not being transferred.
The Siamang transfer into Orangutan Sanctuary does present some issues; as now Melbourne only have one outdoor enclosure for their Orangs which makes breeding much more difficult, as technically Melbourne will only have the space for a single pair and their offspring. Once Kiani passes, this could potentially be done with Gabby as a non breeding female, but i'm not sure how well this will go - unrelated adult females don't really tend to get along well together.
Hopefully Zoos Vic use the opportunity they have with the island opposite Orangutan Sanctuary, and build another enclosure there - connected with overhead ropes and the sort, which will give them the much desired space they need for future breeding.
In addition to concerns around Kiani’s health issues, I suspect there was also a residual attachment regarding her twin status. Even now, you see the occasional reference to the twins (Bono and Suma).
Kiani was spared export to Hyderabad like so many other hybrids in the region and was also allowed to breed in 1990 - an unusual move considering the zoo had a young purebred Sumatran pair that were awaiting a breeding recommendation, a hybrid moratorium had been in place for five years in AZA zoos and it’d been three years since any other zoo in Australasia had bred hybrids.
Expanding the orangutan facilities is commonsense. I’ve been suggesting for a long time they should build an aerial pathway similar to Auckland Zoo. It’s an efficient use of space within a small, city zoo and ties into the rotational species concept zoos are increasingly moving towards.
Just a note to the above that Melbourne’s purebred Sumatran female actually arrived in 1992. They received a ten year old Sumatran male in 1987, who was presumably planned as a breeding partner for the then nine year old hybrid female, Kiani.
For context, the year the male arrived, Taronga was still breeding hybrids and a region wide agreement to cease breeding hybrids hadn’t yet been made - so it’d appear Melbourne made the decision to proceed with plans to breed with Santan and Kiani.
This decision appears to have made with an awareness the region were phasing out hybrids, but accepting they would accomodate the infant long term; and perhaps without the knowledge of how far away an import of a Sumatran female would be.
I did the backstage encounter with the Orangutans last year and was told that at the time, Kiarni was on birth control tablets, as they had no intentions of breeding her and Santan. They found out after a while she was just putting them in her mouth and not swallowing them, then giving them to Santan, and that is how Gabby came along.
Interesting! Birth control in orangutans is so unreliable with many examples of failures. Madju at Auckland Zoo was unplanned and at the time, they also thought Gangsa might have been pregnant.
With failures to contracept hybrids like Kiani having even greater implications, I can see why they recommended sterilisation of all hybrids to ensure total compliance with the moratorium on breeding.