Melbourne Zoo Future of Melbourne Zoo 2023 (Speculation / Fantasy)

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Grant Rhino said:
The "Ultimate Leopard"! Now you're talking! I've been wanting to like this statement all day but it took me ages to find the comment!
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Melbourne Zoo have a proud history with Snow leopards. They were the first zoo in Australasia to exhibit them and this year will celebrate 40 years of holding them. They were also the first in the region to breed them, producing five litters since 1985.

It’s clear Zoos Victoria recognise what an asset they are and I’m confident they have a future at the zoo.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Melbourne Zoo have a proud history with Snow leopards. They were the first zoo in Australasia to exhibit them and this year will celebrate 40 years of holding them. They were also the first in the region to breed them, producing five litters since 1985.

It’s clear Zoos Victoria recognise what an asset they are and I’m confident they have a future at the zoo.
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MZ without snow leopards would be like a pub with no beer.
 
Grant Rhino said:
I agree that hog deer, blackbuck or axis deer (or all 3) would work well with the indian rhino - as they are all pretty looking species.

To your main point though, I think part of the issue here is that while most deer and antelope look good in large herds, quite a number of them don't actually live in large herds in the wild. For example Nilgai tend to live in family groups of 5 or 6 in the wild in India. Zoos have some duty (in my view) to display animals as they live in the wild (as realistically as possible) but of course that can't always be done.
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Also if we're thinking space wise - Melbourne would never be able to display either Hog Deer or Blackbuck in large herds, which I think is something we have to consider. If they do decide to have an antelope species alongside Indian Rhino, i'd assume it'll probably only be eight or so bachelor males down from Werribee.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Melbourne Zoo have a proud history with Snow leopards. They were the first zoo in Australasia to exhibit them and this year will celebrate 40 years of holding them. They were also the first in the region to breed them, producing five litters since 1985.

It’s clear Zoos Victoria recognise what an asset they are and I’m confident they have a future at the zoo.
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It does make sense though as Melbourne is one of the only zoos in Australia where the climate is suitable for them!:)
 
Grant Rhino said:
Let's use the Zoos Victoria criteria list on these species:

Recovery: Addax and Oryx only

Ark: Addax and Oryx only

Ambassador: No - well not for any campaign ZV is using at the moment

Enabling: No

Research: No

To my mind this is the reason why Zoos Victoria (and others) don't want to import more different species of antelope (or deer or bovine).

Now for "Grant's Unpopular Opinion #482":

If you want a zoo with 75,000 different species of ungulate, then go to Altina - but this is not what I want from a zoo. I simply find this boring:

In my opinion when displaying ungulates less in more! For example, I think Mogo Zoo has it perfect - they have:
White Rhino
Giraffe
Zebra
Camel
European Fallow Deer

Four high profile "important" ungulates and ONE smaller one - the difference is that they have a huge herd of the fallow deer (not just 4 or 5). To my mind, this is how deer and antelope look best - in large herds.

WORZ (and Monarto, and Dubbo) have a huge herd of Eland. Individually, I have no interest in eland whatsoever, but when they are in a huge herd they look great - especially when sharing a large exhibit with the "important" species such as giraffes and zebras. The same can be said about the large herd of oryx at WORZ - it works because there are a lot of them.

It seems to me that this is what WORZ (and others) are trying to do with the nyala. And I think this is a great way to do it. They are a beautiful looking creature, but they are not the star attraction and never will be - they are a great supporting act.

The main issue here (in my view) is that no matter how people dress it up, antelope, deer or wild bovines are never going to tick the "Enabling" box - and most of the general public simply can't get attached to them or have the same feelings for them that they have for ungulates such as giraffes, rhinos, zebras, hippos or (maybe) okapi. They are always going to play second fiddle to the high profile, "exotic" ungulates I've just listed. I've even heard comments from the public about how they would like to eat them!

I don't want to come across as too negative towards smaller ungulates, so I will offer a positive option as well: If MZ do decide to bring in Indian rhinos once the elephants leave, then a really good "house-mate" for them would be a large herd (20+) of Hog Deer! They would be an ideal point of difference, AND they co-exist with Indian rhino in Kaziranga National Park, India - the place with the largest concentration of Indian rhino in the world. You could even include Hoolock Gibbons (also found in Kaziranga NP) - but that's too far off topic for this post.

In a nutshell, with smaller ungulates, don't try to display too many - but display them in a smarter way.
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I began reading your “unpopular opinion” and had to wonder what was perfect about a zoo displaying five ungulates. HOWEVER, if that means they can exhibit large herds, then I actually agree that’s more dramatic (and engaging) than a handful of animals representing double the number of species.

It’s long been a complaint of mine that Eastern bongo have been held in pairs and trios, when the open range zoos could accomodate natural herd sizes of up to 50 females (I’d settle for 20).
 
Jambo said:
Also if we're thinking space wise - Melbourne would never be able to display either Hog Deer or Blackbuck in large herds, which I think is something we have to consider. If they do decide to have an antelope species alongside Indian Rhino, i'd assume it'll probably only be eight or so bachelor males down from Werribee.
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Even the concept of what is or isn't a large herd is up for debate. To my mind, this needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.

I think axis deer and hog deer are pretty enough to be able to be displayed in smaller numbers, but other larger, "uglier" species aren't. It's a really hard one - I recognise that.
 
Jambo said:
It does make sense though as Melbourne is one of the only zoos in Australia where the climate is suitable for them!:)
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With Tasmania and Wellington being another two perfect locations. It’s good to see zoos making decisions based on their respective climates. It’s commonsense planning that’s cost effective and promotes diversity as a by-product i.e. you might see more tropical species at a Queensland zoo for example.
 
Grant Rhino said:
I agree that hog deer, blackbuck or axis deer (or all 3) would work well with the indian rhino - as they are all pretty looking species.

To your main point though, I think part of the issue here is that while most deer and antelope look good in large herds, quite a number of them don't actually live in large herds in the wild. For example Nilgai tend to live in family groups of 5 or 6 in the wild in India. Zoos have some duty (in my view) to display animals as they live in the wild (as realistically as possible) but of course that can't always be done.
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That’s why I believe an exceptional herd of up to 20 could be a major attribute to animal lovers, as some herds are able to exceed 20( provided the species don’t feel any stress)
 
Zoofan15 said:
I began reading your “unpopular opinion” and had to wonder what was perfect about a zoo displaying five ungulates. HOWEVER, if that means they can exhibit large herds, then I actually agree that’s more dramatic (and engaging) than a handful of animals representing double the number of species.

It’s long been a complaint of mine that Eastern bongo have been held in pairs and trios, when the open range zoos could accomodate natural herd sizes of up to 50 females (I’d settle for 20).
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Very much agree. When I heard they would not be housed at Werribee, but likely Melbourne(not confirmed I must stress) it was bittersweet. A herd of 20 Bongo would be amazing, but I’ll set for a breeding pair if I don’t have to travel interstate
 
PaddyRickMFZ said:
Very much agree. When I heard they would not be housed at Werribee, but likely Melbourne(not confirmed I must stress) it was bittersweet. A herd of 20 Bongo would be amazing, but I’ll set for a breeding pair if I don’t have to travel interstate
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I’m wondering if this can be attributed to availability. Unlike Lowland nyala, which are Least Concern and farmed in large numbers, Eastern bongo are a Critically Endangered species and don’t appear to be readily available from other regions. Perhaps Melbourne will import a pair - with the view of growing the numbers to house a larger herd at Werribee long term.
 
Zoofan15 said:
I’m wondering if this can be attributed to availability. Unlike Lowland nyala, which are Least Concern and farmed in large numbers, Eastern bongo are a Critically Endangered species and don’t appear to be readily available from other regions. Perhaps Melbourne will import a pair - with the view of growing the numbers to house a larger herd at Werribee long term.
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That would be ideal, and Werribee backflip. Also, @Grant Rhino which zoo do you volunteer at?
 
Zoofan15 said:
I began reading your “unpopular opinion” and had to wonder what was perfect about a zoo displaying five ungulates. HOWEVER, if that means they can exhibit large herds, then I actually agree that’s more dramatic (and engaging) than a handful of animals representing double the number of species.
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I'm really glad someone has seen this point for what I intended it to be (as I expected a bit of backlash) - cheers for that:

This is partly why I've always been critical of people on Zoochat calling zoos that accumulate an enormous number of species "progressive". I see absolutely no value at all in seeing 2 eland, 2 scottish highland cows, 3 addax, 10 rusa deer, 4 elk, 2 camels, a few llamas, 1 bongo, 2 nyala, a few barbary sheep, some Himalayn tahr and a range of other similar species.

To me, all of the effort to display this lot would be far better spent on either something high profile (such as Indian rhino or okapi), OR something like:

30 axis deer
30 blackbuck
20 hog deer
in the Asian enclosure and
25 nyala
15 zebra
8 giraffe
in the African enclosure

I've never met a single person who went to a zoo and came back raving on about how good the wapiti or elk were....

Surely a progressive zoo is a zoo which goes some way towards displaying animals as they would be seen in the wild - and I think the way ungulates are displayed is a really graphic example of this.
 
Grant Rhino said:
I'm really glad someone has seen this point for what I intended it to be (as I expected a bit of backlash) - cheers for that:

This is partly why I've always been critical of people on Zoochat calling zoos that accumulate an enormous number of species "progressive". I see absolutely no value at all in seeing 2 eland, 2 scottish highland cows, 3 addax, 10 rusa deer, 4 elk, 2 camels, a few llamas, 1 bongo, 2 nyala, a few barbary sheep, some Himalayn tahr and a range of other similar species.

To me, all of the effort to display this lot would be far better spent on either something high profile (such as Indian rhino or okapi), OR something like:

30 axis deer
30 blackbuck
20 hog deer
in the Asian enclosure and
25 nyala
15 zebra
8 giraffe
in the African enclosure

I've never met a single person who went to a zoo and came back raving on about how good the wapiti or elk were....

Surely a progressive zoo is a zoo which goes some way towards displaying animals as they would be seen in the wild - and I think the way ungulates are displayed is a really graphic example of this.
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Ngl when I first saw a wapiti I was pretty impressed with how large it was lol. I agree that ungulates should be housed in much larger herds, but I am also one who appreciates diversity. Saying that, I dearly hope Werribee’s waterbuck herd increases in the coming years after it is out at the forefront
 
Grant Rhino said:
I'm really glad someone has seen this point for what I intended it to be (as I expected a bit of backlash) - cheers for that:

This is partly why I've always been critical of people on Zoochat calling zoos that accumulate an enormous number of species "progressive". I see absolutely no value at all in seeing 2 eland, 2 scottish highland cows, 3 addax, 10 rusa deer, 4 elk, 2 camels, a few llamas, 1 bongo, 2 nyala, a few barbary sheep, some Himalayn tahr and a range of other similar species.

To me, all of the effort to display this lot would be far better spent on either something high profile (such as Indian rhino or okapi), OR something like:

30 axis deer
30 blackbuck
20 hog deer
in the Asian enclosure and
25 nyala
15 zebra
8 giraffe
in the African enclosure

I've never met a single person who went to a zoo and came back raving on about how good the wapiti or elk were....

Surely a progressive zoo is a zoo which goes some way towards displaying animals as they would be seen in the wild - and I think the way ungulates are displayed is a really graphic example of this.
Click to expand...

No problem. I think it’s great we can all have a discussion where we can agree and disagree with that’s been said - while respecting each other’s opinions and without it turning into an argument. It’d be impossible for us all to be in complete agreement with each other and I’m sure we’ve all read posts that initially made us disagree, but then challenged us to think differently.

Another example of this is Currumbin. I’ve consistently heard non zoo people friends rave about this park. Not knowing much about it, I once replied “they just have lorikeets and stuff right?” and was told, yes, but there’s more than you’ll ever see in one place.
 
Zoofan15 said:
I’m wondering if this can be attributed to availability. Unlike Lowland nyala, which are Least Concern and farmed in large numbers, Eastern bongo are a Critically Endangered species and don’t appear to be readily available from other regions.
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I don't know the answer to this - but I assume the following:

1. Nyala are easy to obtain (as you mentioned)

2. Nyala seem to breed very easily (I don't know if bongo do also)

3. Nyala are "better looking" than bongo in the sense that they can play the role of "small antelope on the savannah at the feet of the giraffe" more so than bongo can.

4. Further to point 3, male and female nyala look quite different from one another (certainly more so than with bongo) - so perhaps you kinda get 2 different looking animals within the same species.

These are just my own perceptions though - I don't know the views of the zoo(s).
 
Zoofan15 said:
No problem. I think it’s great we can all have a discussion where we can agree and disagree with that’s been said - while respecting each other’s opinions and without it turning into an argument. It’d be impossible for us all to be in complete agreement with each other and I’m sure we’ve all read posts that initially made us disagree, but then challenged us to think differently.

Another example of this is Currumbin. I’ve consistently heard non zoo people friends rave about this park. Not knowing much about it, I once replied “they just have lorikeets and stuff right?” and was told, yes, but there’s more than you’ll ever see in one place.
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I’m actually a big fan of Currumbin, mostly due to the natural beauty and the quality of exhibits. It was getting a bit repetitive until the new precinct which has some great exotic animals, capybara being my favourite animal (tied with okapi) was a great addition and improved the appeal to children. I desperately hope Melbourne implement Capybara, and an encounter would be the greatest thing ever created by a human being
 
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