ZSL London Zoo Future Of the Mappin terraces

[Gavialis]

My understanding has always been that the Aquarium has been in a far worse state of repair than the rest of the Mappins, much of which appears to remain structurally sound. Even after the zoo decided to close the former two or three years back, there were discussions (never official plans though) on utilising the mountains for animals again. It would be a shame (and expensive!) to demolish such an iconic structure when much of it could still be used.

There is a pressing need to bring in something charismatic at a fairly low cost and a mid-sized bear species is the obvious choice. The sloth bears were carted off to Whipsnade as they were a 'poor exhibit' (!) but were probably too retiring for an open space. Similarly, sun bears would probably be too small to make much of an impression in such a large area. As I doubt ZSL would acquire pandas in the current climate, that leaves spectacled bears - rare, charismatic and (fairly) showy - which leaves open the possibility of a mixed species exhibits (e.g. with black howlers at Jersey).

If the expensive plans for the Snowdon were abandoned in favour of a low-key renovation, a considerable sum would be freed up to accomplish this (as reference point, in today's money, the 1997 renovation for sloth bears would cost around £300,000). Supplementary exhibits (giant otters? flamingos?) would add to the expense but, if they are as stable as I've been led to believe, the mountains could house a flock of vicuna with minimal refurbishment.

On the other hand, I doubt ZSL could do much with the Aquarium in the near future. In hindsight, it is a shame that the zoo chose to apply for lottery funding for the Snowdon (which could be refurbished on a much lower budget) rather than the Aquarium - for which there is no cheap or easy option.

 

[Andrew Swales]

My understanding has always been that the Aquarium has been in a far worse state of repair than the rest of the Mappins, much of which appears to remain structurally sound. Even after the zoo decided to close the former two or three years back, there were discussions (never official plans though) on utilising the mountains for animals again. It would be a shame (and expensive!) to demolish such an iconic structure when much of it could still be used.

There is a pressing need to bring in something charismatic at a fairly low cost and a mid-sized bear species is the obvious choice. The sloth bears were carted off to Whipsnade as they were a 'poor exhibit' (!) but were probably too retiring for an open space. Similarly, sun bears would probably be too small to make much of an impression in such a large area. As I doubt ZSL would acquire pandas in the current climate, that leaves spectacled bears - rare, charismatic and (fairly) showy - which leaves open the possibility of a mixed species exhibits (e.g. with black howlers at Jersey).

If the expensive plans for the Snowdon were abandoned in favour of a low-key renovation, a considerable sum would be freed up to accomplish this (as reference point, in today's money, the 1997 renovation for sloth bears would cost around £300,000). Supplementary exhibits (giant otters? flamingos?) would add to the expense but, if they are as stable as I've been led to believe, the mountains could house a flock of vicuna with minimal refurbishment.

On the other hand, I doubt ZSL could do much with the Aquarium in the near future. In hindsight, it is a shame that the zoo chose to apply for lottery funding for the Snowdon (which could be refurbished on a much lower budget) rather than the Aquarium - for which there is no cheap or easy option.

Bravo!
As a latecomer to this post, and someone with no emotional attachment to London Zoo, probably because it did not form a direct part of my childhood, this makes the most sense of anything I have read.
Given the cost of new enclosures at London Zoo, retention of their iconic landmarks makes most sense to me. The cost of demolition and replacement would be crippling, and the organisation shows no evidence of being able to replace the old with anything better. I would suggest that the familiar structures of the penguin pool, Mappins. Snowdon and Casson should all be retained, renovated and maintained, and thoughtfully and carefully used for appropriate live animals with modern husbandry techniques.
This should not be beyond possibility, and the features of the London skyline would be retained and celebrated, just as they were/are in Paris.

 

[gentle lemur]

My understanding has always been that the Aquarium has been in a far worse state of repair than the rest of the Mappins, much of which appears to remain structurally sound. Even after the zoo decided to close the former two or three years back, there were discussions (never official plans though) on utilising the mountains for animals again. It would be a shame (and expensive!) to demolish such an iconic structure when much of it could still be used. . . .
On the other hand, I doubt ZSL could do much with the Aquarium in the near future. In hindsight, it is a shame that the zoo chose to apply for lottery funding for the Snowdon (which could be refurbished on a much lower budget) rather than the Aquarium - for which there is no cheap or easy option.

The problem is that the Mappin terraces is a listed building, except for the Aquarium. So that modification or demolition would require permission, and that would require careful planning and potentially delicate negotiations with the local council and perhaps with Historic England too. The lottery is helping to fund the renovation of the Snowdon because it is a listed building and so the renovation work must meet the appropriate standards. I doubt if they would have provided funds for work on the Aquarium.

 

[Gavialis]

The problem is that the Mappin terraces is a listed building, except for the Aquarium. So that modification or demolition would require permission, and that would require careful planning and potentially delicate negotiations with the local council and perhaps with Historic England too. The lottery is helping to fund the renovation of the Snowdon because it is a listed building and so the renovation work must meet the appropriate standards. I doubt if they would have provided funds for work on the Aquarium.

I do agree, but some modification is clearly allowed: both 'Bear Mountain' and the 'Outback' exhibits were built after the structure was listed. I suspect English Heritage and other similar bodies are primarily concerned with preserving the old Goat Hills, rather than the rest of the Terraces.

I'd forgotten the Aquarium itself wasn't listed - thank you for reminding me. On the other hand, HLF claim to fund "historic buildings, monuments and the historic environment from houses and mills, to caves and gardens. Areas that are connected to history and heritage," with no specific reference that buildings must be listed to be eligible (though I agree that listing would be an important consideration).

The Aquarium is a historic building in its own right (dating to 1921) and, either way, is an integral part of the listed Mappins (indeed, the bulk of the scrapped 2018 plans to refurbish the Aquarium actually centred on making necessary repairs to the various columns, beams and roof slabs that are part of the terraces themselves). I wouldn't have thought it impossible that the HLF might provide funds for a combined refurbishment of both the Mappins and the Aquarium - though I could well be wrong.

 

[Crowthorne]

If you go to the Listed Buildings section of the Historic England website, you can search by map view, which shows just how many listed heritage structures there are in the ZSL London site (attached)

The Mappin Terraces page can be found here: THE MAPPIN TERRACES, INCLUDING THE MAPPIN CAFE, City of Westminster - 1237587 | Historic England

 

[Andrew Swales]

If you go to the Listed Buildings section of the Historic England website, you can search by map view, which shows just how many listed heritage structures there are in the ZSL London site (attached)

The Mappin Terraces page can be found here: THE MAPPIN TERRACES, INCLUDING THE MAPPIN CAFE, City of Westminster - 1237587 | Historic England

That is quite an eye-opener, and goes to show that given the way Listed Buildings are managed in England, that London Zoo will have to work with what it has got, and any thought of major demolition and re-building are probably just speculation - even if this was desirable, which is a matter of opinion..

 

[Panthera1981]

Personally I feel the horse bolted long ago with regards saving the Mappins, however surely a relatively low cost renovation could involve a Twycross-style gibbon or siamang exhibit?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

That is quite an eye-opener, and goes to show that given the way Listed Buildings are managed in England, that London Zoo will have to work with what it has got, and any thought of major demolition and re-building are probably just speculation - even if this was desirable, which is a matter of opinion..

For goodness sake, the Regent's Park Zoo is a zoological facility.

It is clear to all here and beyond the Mappin's have been falling to bits for decades. All involved know it is obsolete, in total disrepair, dangerous and totally out of date for its intended usage(s). I understand the value of cultural heritage but the Mappin's and its bear terraces and aquarium have become a sick joke.

It does not take rocket science to predict that at some point this whole thing will come down with or without demolotion building company overseeing things. Its being there in the first place is now a major stumbling block to ever doing something worthwhile zoo wise with the site. Not doing anything, either London Zoo/ZSL, London City Council or any other public authority in and around London ..., they all share the blame for its continued failure. It has become the proverbial shared "blight black spot" on the landscape.

Now let us do something positive for a change!

 

[Zorro]

For goodness sake, the Regent's Park Zoo is a zoological facility.

It is clear to all here and beyond the Mappin's have been following to bits for decades. All involved know it is obsolete, in total disrepair, dangerous and totally out of date for its intended usage(s). I understand the value of cultural heritage but the Mappin's and its bear terraces and aquarium have become a sick joke.

It does not take rocket science to predict that at some point this whole thing will come down with or without demolotion building company overseeing things. Its being there in the first place is now a major stumbling block to ever doing something worthwhile zoo wise with the site. Not doing anything, either London Zoo/ZSL, London City Council or any other public authority in and around London ..., is to blame for its continued failure. It has become the proverbial shared "blight black spot" on the landscape.

Now let us do something positive for a change!

I agree old ideas with little will to move with the times I would never have thought that this once perhaps best known zoo would ever drop to the level it has now become perhaps, time for new management new ideas and new blood!

 

[Andrew Swales]

For goodness sake, the Regent's Park Zoo is a zoological facility.

It is clear to all here and beyond the Mappin's have been following to bits for decades. All involved know it is obsolete, in total disrepair, dangerous and totally out of date for its intended usage(s). I understand the value of cultural heritage but the Mappin's and its bear terraces and aquarium have become a sick joke.

It does not take rocket science to predict that at some point this whole thing will come down with or without demolotion building company overseeing things. Its being there in the first place is now a major stumbling block to ever doing something worthwhile zoo wise with the site. Not doing anything, either London Zoo/ZSL, London City Council or any other public authority in and around London ..., is to blame for its continued failure. It has become the proverbial shared "blight black spot" on the landscape.

Now let us do something positive for a change!

This reply is simply the speculation I referred to. Their is no harm in speculation, provided you realise it is just that, and there is even a section on this site for such 'fantasies', even if it is usually full of school-boy maps. The fact is that if permission could be granted and the funds found to demolish it, then that would have either happened by now or at least be progressing. It is clear that Listed Building control in England, will not allow it.
So speculation aside the controlling powers have two choices - let it continue to crumble, or maintain it and use it for something. Simples! Leaving the numerous listed buildings on the London Zoo site to crumble will always give an air of decay to the place. Just make a comparison between Paris or Antwerp...

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

We are all entitled to our opinions, but let us not be dismissive of other peoples' points of view or opinions. I do not double in fantasies nor school boy play and I have seen the place for myself in the last few decades and each time it was even worse for wear. To claim that my observations on the state of the buildings are sheer speculation is an inaccurate portrayal of how things stand at the moment.

As for your reply you say "If ...." and anything from that sentence onwards is just that a very Big If which sadly in the past decade+ has never happened, For the foreseeable future and given the current economic climate, ZSL's rather disastrous general financial situation and management's rather divided loyalties over zoo and conservation works, I cannot see it from becoming a reality very soon or even - at best - over the mid term.

Honestly, I have never seen any evidence of a concerted and credible effort by multiple authorities both ZSL and other local London or national bodies ever make a real credible bit to fix the buildings. Lastly, ZSL probably at the instigation of municipal authorities have been "forced" the case the Aquarium as a last "piece de resistance".

The only speculation might and will be how long the building is allowed to stand before it implodes of its own accord or by active "operators" with or without consent from ZSL and London City Council.

 

[Andrew Swales]

To claim that my observations on the state of the buildings are sheer speculation.

This is a deliberate miss-quote of what I said. I never claimed that your observations of ZSL's decline were/are sheer speculation.
What I did say, was that the suggestion that ZSL could get permission to tear down its Listed Buildings and replace them, was speculation/fantasy.
I still believe that this means it has to live with what it has, as has Paris and Antwerp - and find a way to turn this to its benefit - or continue its decline.
Those are its choices.

 

[FBBird]

This is a deliberate miss-quote of what I said. I never claimed that your observations of ZSL's decline were/are sheer speculation.
What I did say, was that the suggestion that ZSL could get permission to tear down its Listed Buildings and replace them, was speculation/fantasy.
I still believe that this means it has to live with what it has, as has Paris and Antwerp - and find a way to turn this to its benefit - or continue its decline.
Those are its choices.

You’d think there would be an eccentric millionaire somewhere to help this happen......

 

[Panthera1981]

You’d think there would be an eccentric millionaire somewhere to help this happen......

I think even an eccentric millionaire would have an epiphany when it comes to the Mappins!

Anyway, they’ve probably already invested all their money into Notre Dame

 

[SHAVINGTONZOO]

This reply is simply the speculation I referred to. Their is no harm in speculation, provided you realise it is just that, and there is even a section on this site for such 'fantasies', even if it is usually full of school-boy maps. The fact is that if permission could be granted and the funds found to demolish it, then that would have either happened by now or at least be progressing. It is clear that Listed Building control in England, will not allow it.

Listed buildings can be demolished, though it is clearly a rare event. I note that the Mappin is Grade II Listed - the lowest classification. Of course, demolition would be expensive and it may well be the case that it can't be afforded. But if a light refurb would be practical then, perhaps, "that would either [have] happened by now or at least be progressing"?

 

[Crowthorne]

Yes, there are processes to be followed, but with the right consent it is perfectly legal to demolish a listed building, same as for any other structural changes or alterations

Planning Permission: Listed Buildings and Other Heritage Assets | Historic England.

Demolition and heritage assets
Following a decision in a judicial review case in 2011 (3), the understanding of what demolition requires planning permission has changed. The position appears now to be as follows:

1. Planning permission is in principle required for demolition of listed buildings; conservation areas buildings; non-residential and residential buildings, notwithstanding that separate consent (such as listed building consent) may also be required.

2. Planning permission is not needed for demolition of buildings of external volume of 50 cubic metres or less or for the demolition of a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure, except in conservation areas as long as they are not development in the first place.

3. Where planning permission is in principle required an application may still not be necessary as permission may be deemed given under the General Permitted Development Order (1).

4. Part 11 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 2015 permits the demolition of a building without an application being needed, unless:

(a) the building has been rendered unsafe or otherwise uninhabitable by the action or inaction of any person having an interest in the land on which the buiding stands and it is practicable to secure health and safety by works or repair or works for affording temporary support; or

(b) the demolition is 'relevant demolition' for the purposes of s196D of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (4).

5. Before exercising any permitted development rights to demolish a building a developer must ask the local planning authority if prior approval of the method of demolition is needed. If permitted development demolition is carried out urgently in the interest of health and safety, the developer must, as soon as reasonably practicable, write to the authority justifying the demolition.

6. The Local Planning Authority can protect heritage assets that are non-listed buildings and buildings outside of conservation areas from demolition by using an article 4 direction to remove these permitted development rights.

 

[gentle lemur]

You’d think there would be an eccentric millionaire somewhere to help this happen......

That's what happened in the past: Jack Cotton, Charles Clore, Michael Sobell, Swarj Paul, David Blackburn et al all gave millions to ZSL, and of course John Mappin (of the royal jewellers, Mappin & Webb) provided the money for the Mappin Terraces.
There is good page about London Zoo's architecture on their website Architecture at ZSL London Zoo, Regent's Park

 

[Andrew Swales]

Listed buildings can be demolished, though it is clearly a rare event. I note that the Mappin is Grade II Listed - the lowest classification. Of course, demolition would be expensive and it may well be the case that it can't be afforded. But if a light refurb would be practical then, perhaps, "that would either [have] happened by now or at least be progressing"?

Looks as though continued crumbling decline, it is, then... unless David Attenborough is doing really well with his appeal? ... has anyone heard how he's doing?

 

[Jennings]

And indeed a fair few listed structures have been demolished in London in recent years. The old Wembley Stadium, the Baltic Exchange, Earl's Court Exhibition Centre. All buildings of greater merit than a lump of cancerous concrete with some disused fish tanks in the cellar.

 

[Gavialis]

Looks as though continued crumbling decline, it is, then... unless David Attenborough is doing really well with his appeal? ... has anyone heard how he's doing?

The aim of the appeal was to raise £1million every month for a year. Two months on, and, according to the JustGiving fundraiser page (which appears to include offline donations too), just under £850,000 has been raised. Reading between the lines, I suspect ZSL also expected to get £13million from the Government - which we now know is unlikely to be forthcoming...

Touching briefly on the subject of the Mappins, I have little to add the points made by Andrew Swales above. I would add, though, that there are already animals on the Mappins (unlike, say, the Aquarium) - I doubt this would be the case if the main structure was structurally unsafe. The question is whether ZSL has the gumption to use the space for something more dramatic...