Gibbon Taxonomy

snowleopard

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15+ year member
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I recently received my latest issue of the terrific IZES magazine (Independent Zoo Enthusiasts Society) and within the 32 pages there is a fascinating section on gibbons. I can remember a time when I was much younger and there seemed to be only about 9 gibbon species, but the latest thinking on the taxonomy of the Hylobatidae has resulted in a staggering 17 species. I wonder if there will be close to 30 different gibbon species when I'm an old man?

What zoos have the most number of species? Are there many hybrids in major zoos?

The list in IZES:

Western Hoolock
Eastern Hoolock
Lar or White-Handed
Agile or Black-Handed
White-Bearded
Bornean Grey or Muller's
Silvery or Javan
Pileated
Kloss's
Siamang
Black Crested or Concolor
Eastern Black Crested
Hainan
Northern White-Cheeked
Southern White-Cheeked
Northern Buff-Cheeked
Southern Buff-Cheeked
 
I wonder if there will be close to 30 different gibbon species when I'm an old man?

Most likely, these taxonomists have to do something to justify their salaries:).

What zoos have the most number of species?

Off the top of my head, Twycross hold six species:

Lar or White-Handed
Agile or Black-Handed
Bornean Grey or Muller's (one specimen)
Pileated
Siamang
Black Crested or Concolor
 
snowleopard said:
I wonder if there will be close to 30 different gibbon species when I'm an old man?
no. Given the status of most gibbon species, I'd say there's more likely to be 3 than 30 when you're an old man.
 
The whole biology of gibbons is extremely weird. Part of the reason they have been spilt so much is that their chromosomes have been severely scrambled compared to other primates, and some have a much higher chromosome count compared to other primates, which usually hover around the 2n=40 mark The different genera are distinguished by different diploid chromosome counts; Nomascus (2n=52); Symphalangus (2n=50); Hylobates (2n=44); and Hoolock (2n-38).
 
Credit to Mike Grayson on that article..but with regards to splitting being a for-profit occupation Shorts then i think you do much dedicated work a dis-service.It really is a case of new horizons and new technologies..many oppose this because it is inconvenient to long-held personal perceptions.The major name in mammalian taxonomic revision these days seem to be Colin Groves-anyone would be well advised to check out his papers and the evidence for his proposals...to accuse him of profiteering is very unfair,his work is remarkable.
 
The major name in mammalian taxonomic revision these days seem to be Colin Groves-anyone would be well advised to check out his papers and the evidence for his proposals

Mr. Groves has done a great deal to mammalian taxonomy in recent decades, but to suggest he is The major name is not really an accurate description (and he has had the somewhat unfortunate habit of sometimes making major claims on limited evidence, e.g. very few/only a single specimen). There is a whole range of taxonomists working with mammals that deserve roughly equal credit. Fortunately, because the endeavour would be far too big for any single person, no matter how exceptional. In gibbons, the most eminent taxonomist is arguably Thomas Geissmann, though several others also have made very important contributions, e.g. Christian Roos and Tilo Nadler (of Endangered Primate Rescue Center fame). From a personal point of view I find it particularly pleasing to see an increasing number of high quality publications by biologists that originate from southeast Asia (e.g. several of the authors of the recent description of N. annamensis were Vietnamese); the chance of gibbon survival is higher when more locals are involved.
 
Credit to Mike Grayson on that article..but with regards to splitting being a for-profit occupation Shorts then i think you do much dedicated work a dis-service.It really is a case of new horizons and new technologies..many oppose this because it is inconvenient to long-held personal perceptions.The major name in mammalian taxonomic revision these days seem to be Colin Groves-anyone would be well advised to check out his papers and the evidence for his proposals...to accuse him of profiteering is very unfair,his work is remarkable.

Sorry if my flippant and perhaps over-generalised remark caused offence. I liked Mikes article(s) and, truth be told, I'm fairly happy "splitting" when extra chromosomes are involved. My remark was more aimed at the over-zealous splitters (especially when sub-species are discussed) like Marc Van Roosmalen who sometimes appears to think a (say) smaller than usual specimen is a new sub-species or species. To be honest I struggle with the Northern White Rhino being a separate species too (not that it's likely to be an issue for much longer, unfortunately).
 
Sorry if my flippant and perhaps over-generalised remark caused offence. I liked Mikes article(s) and, truth be told, I'm fairly happy "splitting" when extra chromosomes are involved. My remark was more aimed at the over-zealous splitters (especially when sub-species are discussed) like Marc Van Roosmalen who sometimes appears to think a (say) smaller than usual specimen is a new sub-species or species. To be honest I struggle with the Northern White Rhino being a separate species too (not that it's likely to be an issue for much longer, unfortunately).

Dear Shorts, these morphological differences are and should be the very essence and basis for any assessment in taxonomy and morphology of species and species description. To be fair: the no. of chromosomes is the genetic line ... and is mode for supporting splitting or lumping species. Zoogeographic barriers are very much relevant in describing new species. To somehow disprove off the likes of respected field scientists as Marc van Roosmalen in being overzealous in splitting species to me is in the same category as saying Colin Groves does not know his business.
 
Please folks try and obtain[or borrow]Groves and Grubbs recent "Ungulate Taxonomy"..it will really open your eyes.It isnt conclusive,and doesnt claim to be, but points a fairly obvious finger at grossly under-researched,overly-lumped species[?] such as the Wild Boar amongst many others.And Shorts..no offence old bean,just a realisation that there are some very committed taxonomists out there that deserve our thanks.ON the other hand,and i get your point,i was recently told that some species remain on the endangered list in order to secure research funding for some scientists when they in actual fact should be removed from the lists!
 
... these morphological differences are and should be the very essence and basis for any assessment in taxonomy and morphology of species and species description.

Except that they in some cases are made on an questionable basis. A basic example: I have 20 normal specimens of some species. I find one specimen that looks quite different, e.g. different cranial measurements and alike. I claim it is a new species. This has happened repeatedly in the last decade. Let's imagine this example in humans: I have 20 human specimens. Chance is, they all look pretty normal. I now find a specimen that is clearly different: Shorter stature, proportionally shorter limbs, differences in cranium. Clearly, with such striking difference compared to the 20 'normal' specimens, it must be a new species. Except, of course, the previously described aberrancies are typical of achondroplasia (the most common syndrome that causes human dwarfism), but how would I know with such a relatively simple analysis? Such discrepancies can easily be proven/disproven by adding more methods, e.g. DNA, voice (important in gibbons) or similar. A comparable problem is sampling from extremes. If we imagine a population with range that is approximately 1000 km long, and we only use samples from the two extreme ends of the distribution, how would we know these aren't extremes of a cline rather clear species? We need data in between. Yet another potentialy problematic is the use of microsatellite DNA alone, without more standard DNA analyses. Microsatellite data can be very useful, but it can also give rather misleading results. Although no modern human 'race' is monophyletic (meaning that virtually all serious authorities totally disregard the concept of several modern races in humans), there are some differences in microsatellite DNA that roughly match the 'races'. All this can be summed down to the standard sentence:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Van Roosmalen, easily one of the most knowledgeable people on Amazonian mammalogy, has made some rather remarkable claims (manatee, peccary, tapir, coati, jaguar, etc) supported by little evidence. This has resulted in hesitation (to use diplomatic wording) among other authorities on mammals. It is far harder to criticize his earlier work which has been accepted without hesitation by other authorities. Regarding the recent Ungulate Taxonomy, Groves and the late Grubb should be applauded for this exceptional work, but there also are a number of shortcomings, some of which match what I described above. In fairness, some (but not all) of these studies aren't theirs, but they still quote them as basis for their opinions. I do however find it interesting how people using much of the same basis sometimes come to quite different conclusions. For example, Cotterill, an authority on African ungulates who also is an opponent of bsc, in some cases came to different conclusions when he reviewed African dwarf antelopes, incl. duikers. This can be partially explained by timing (newer studies were not available to Cotterill), but in other cases largely the same evidence was available to Cotterill and Groves+Grubb. Who is right when there is disagreement? I guess time will tell. To their credit, both publications highlight that their suggested classifications are preliminary because many unresolved issues remain.

The very basis for science is that when someone makes a claim, other can question the results. To suggest that any authority is above critisism is highly problematic. I've had people question results in publications I was involved in. This has resulted in the publication of additional support of the original thesis, or the realization that it was wrong. Either way, people questioning results is one of the primary driving forces in science.

As for the white rhino, it is reasonably clear: Either you follow bsc and there is only one species based on published evidence, or you follow psc and there are two based on published evidence.

Finally, I really do wish people working in mammal taxonomy would follow the lead of some other fields (birds, butterflies, fungi, etc) and realize that from a scientific point of view, descriptions like 'a bit darker' or 'deep brown' are useless. Their accuracy depend on the human eye and individual judgement, and therefore can't be tested rigorously in a scientific way. If they instead use color charts (like Naturalist's Color Guide by Smithe) or electronic color measuring systems, it can easily be tested.
 
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Thanks Condor for articulating my scepticism to some of the claims far better, and with more background knowledge than I ever could.

To be fair I realise I was a little guilty of lumping:D all the splitters and their claims and I need to do a little more reading/research (so little time, so much to read).
 
condor, I agree that some claimants of new species do take little evidence for good measure. If anything you need a good sample section to make any informed judgements. In effect ..., however the tapir claim by f.i. MvR has just recently been corroborated by scientific publications to the effect that lowland tapir may in fact be two different species (and the examples are from Amazonia wide). I cannot judge the more recent work too much as I have yet to see those scientific publications. However, we are singling out one as opposed to looking at the real evidence.

Anyhow on Groves ... has quite recently not only looked at ungulates alone and it is really breaking new ground.

First and foremost should be that claims are followed by counter claims and new evidence to support either or neither theory into species concepts and has always been that way. It takes a few mavericks to go outside the mainstream to really make a difference ... Hence, I would not discount anyone from the debate.

Lastly, there have always been lumpers and splitters in taxonomy and I do not expect that to change one damn bit ... :D
 
Please folks try and obtain[or borrow]Groves and Grubbs recent "Ungulate Taxonomy"..it will really open your eyes.

Does anybody know where I might be able to see this book on a budget?

I really would love to see this book, but I can't justify paying over £100 for a book that I can't even look in before buying - I like to be able to look at a few pages of a book like that.

Likewise, £100+ is far too much for a book to me, considering I very rarely have much disposable income. I'd rather be buying myself a boa, monitor or tegu for the price of some Colin Groves books :p
 
the tapir claim by f.i. MvR has just recently been corroborated by scientific publications to the effect that lowland tapir may in fact be two different species (and the examples are from Amazonia wide).

Do anyone have a citation for the study. If it has been published, I've managed to miss it. Do either match MvR's pygmy with different teeth from S. Amazon? Or are they 'only' splits of the already recognized subspecies, contra MvR.

I like to be able to look at a few pages of a book like that.

Search 'ungulate taxonomy' on google books. Only a few sections are available and I think there are differences depending on the IP country. Despite its shortcomings in some cases, it is undeniably a remarkable and groundbreaking work, but you probably have to be a bit of an ungulate taxonomy fan to find it interesting :p. If you're mainly interested in nice color illutrations and popular science, the book isn't for you.

______________

Apologies to snowleopard -- this thread has wandered off topic. The initial question could still use input from more people:
What zoos have the most number of gibbon species (any with more than the 6 at Twycross)?
Are there many gibbon hybrids in major zoos?
 
Do anyone have a citation for the study. If it has been published, I've managed to miss it. Do either match MvR's pygmy with different teeth from S. Amazon? Or are they 'only' splits of the already recognized subspecies, contra MvR. Search 'ungulate taxonomy' on google books. Only a few sections are available and I think there are differences depending on the IP country. Despite its shortcomings in some cases, it is undeniably a remarkable and groundbreaking work, but you probably have to be a bit of an ungulate taxonomy fan to find it interesting :p. If you're mainly interested in nice color illutrations and popular science, the book isn't for you. ______________ Apologies to snowleopard -- this thread has wandered off topic. The initial question could still use input from more people: What zoos have the most number of gibbon species (any with more than the 6 at Twycross)? Are there many gibbon hybrids in major zoos?

Thanks :) - my main interest is seeing what the species are that have been split, and wondering if there are any illustrations/notes highlighting the differences between species and subspecies of certain animals, so in short a mix :)
 
Chester Zoo library should have it by now i would think..would give you the chance to consider the book.... and no dead rats or heating pads!
 
Chester Zoo library should have it by now i would think..would give you the chance to consider the book.... and no dead rats or heating pads!

Thanks for the info - I keep meaning to go in the library but I can only ever get to the zoo at weekends when it isn't open, next time I'm there in the week I'll try and get in :)

Nothing wrong with a housefull of dead rats [well, if you keep a snake anyway :p]
 
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