Noah's Ark Zoo Farm Giraffes

zoogiraffe said:
Got to be in an EEP to be kicked out and they were not involved in the Giraffe EEP on the last list of collections working with the EEP that i saw.
Actual even if she is a Hybrid this is still not good as it means that yet another collection is producing Hybrid Giraffes for no good reasom other than getting visitors through the doors when a baby is born.
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Ahhh, thanks :).

As for breeding hybrids with hybrids, I actually have no problem with that. Obviously, zoos are working to get pure herds of subspecific animals and that is the most important thing, so this shouldn't be compromised.
However (and as cruel as this sounds), hybrid giraffes can be given as 'starters' for zoos wanting to go into giraffes, before handing over animals more valuable to the breeding programs. This way the zoo can get some experience in keeping giraffes before receiving a pure Rothschild or retic.

I think there is room for smaller zoos to set up a 'hybrid program' where they won't go into the larger species, but will breed hybrids and loan them to zoos for the reason stated above?

Of course, I could be completly off my trolley with this one, but it is just my opinion :o
 
No, there is no room for zoos producing more hybrid giraffes.

There are already too many of them, taking space which is needed for pure subspecies. Starters can be given single-sex groups of hybrids or even purebreds. This way, the zoo has an important role in the EEP from the beginning - keeping single-sex groups of hybrids or bachelor groups of purebreds is very important for the EEP to archieve the goal of phasing hybrids out. By the way, giraffes are not that fragile that zoos without experience can do that much wrong, and they can always get advice from other zoos.

This just shows that Noah`s Ark has no intention to do what I expect from a zoo under scientific management that wants to be more then a roadside zoo or a stationary circus.
 
Yassa said:
No, there is no room for zoos producing more hybrid giraffes.

There are already too many of them, taking space which is needed for pure subspecies. Starters can be given single-sex groups of hybrids or even purebreds. This way, the zoo has an important role in the EEP from the beginning - keeping single-sex groups of hybrids or bachelor groups of purebreds is very important for the EEP to archieve the goal of phasing hybrids out. By the way, giraffes are not that fragile that zoos without experience can do that much wrong, and they can always get advice from other zoos.

This just shows that Noah`s Ark has no intention to do what I expect from a zoo under scientific management that wants to be more then a roadside zoo or a stationary circus.
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Makes sense :). I didn't know how tricky they would be, and I've seen similar things where zoos get a 'least concern' animal to get a feel for how to look after them to the best potential before going into the more valuable endangered species within its genus/family etc.

Out of interest, does anybody know numbers of pure-bred giraffes in Europe (EEP)? For both Rothschild and retic (I know there are Masai, but i don't think there are many :()
 
Blossom said:
Yes, for any breeding programme there has to be a degree of coordination, otherwise it would just be chaos. If Noah's Ark do breed hybrid griaffe then they will surely be over burdening the space that zoos have left for holding pure giraffe. Coordination, which by its very nature requries a central body, is the only way forward (long term). Sure, in the short-term zoos could do what they wanted with their animals, keep what species they wanted, but it always comes back full circle. Smarter people than me have decided that coordinated breeding programmes are the best method, and I trust them.
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Of course, noone is arguing they aren't, by far, the best method. My point was that obeying a programme coordinator in another country shouldn't be a requirement for having a zoo licence. As idiotic as is it, I think a zoo should be able to stay outside of an EEP/ESB should they wish to, and not therefore be bound by its recommendations. I'm not saying its a good thing, to the contrary it would reflect badly on any institution.
 
johnstoni said:
Of course, noone is arguing they aren't, by far, the best method. My point was that obeying a programme coordinator in another country shouldn't be a requirement for having a zoo licence. As idiotic as is it, I think a zoo should be able to stay outside of an EEP/ESB should they wish to, and not therefore be bound by its recommendations. I'm not saying its a good thing, to the contrary it would reflect badly on any institution.
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Surely any zoo can stay out of an EEP or ESB, they just don't join EAZA, isn't that correct? Presumably NAZF are not EAZA members, therefore not in the EEP for giraffes and can do whatever they want. The other zoo which sold the female must not be an EAZA member either, or they would not be able to sell their giraffe, is that right?

Regarding zoo licences, does the SSSMZP not state that a zoo should not knowingly hybridise animals, would they not be in contravention of that anyway and therefore face problems there?
 
Blossom said:
Surely any zoo can stay out of an EEP or ESB, they just don't join EAZA, isn't that correct? Presumably NAZF are not EAZA members, therefore not in the EEP for giraffes and can do whatever they want. The other zoo which sold the female must not be an EAZA member either, or they would not be able to sell their giraffe, is that right?
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Correct afaik. EEP exchanges don't involve 'buying and selling'- they are 'loans' (even if on a longterm basis)

For NAZF as a nonparticipant, to source another giraffe would have been harder for them as presumbly no EAZA member zoo would be allowed to send them an animal- even a hybrid- as such movements would be at the discretion of the relevant EEP, hence why its taken them so long perhaps to find one.
 
Javan Rhino said:
Out of interest, does anybody know numbers of pure-bred giraffes in Europe (EEP)? For both Rothschild and retic (I know there are Masai, but i don't think there are many :()
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These are the total for 2008 which is the closest i can find for the current numbers at the moment but they will not be to far off,
Reticulated = 118
Rothschild`s = 310
Masai = 5
Angolen = 20
Kordorfan = 68
Travsvaal = 42
Hybrids = 142
Unknown species = 47

Hope this helps
 
zoogiraffe said:
These are the total for 2008 which is the closest i can find for the current numbers at the moment but they will not be to far off,
Reticulated = 118
Rothschild`s = 310
Masai = 5
Angolen = 20
Kordorfan = 68
Travsvaal = 42
Hybrids = 142
Unknown species = 47

Hope this helps
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Sure does ZG :). Shame there are no W. African (my favourite), but alas I knew there wasn't anyway.

Thanks again for the info ZG :)
 
Blossom said:
Regarding zoo licences, does the SSSMZP not state that a zoo should not knowingly hybridise animals, would they not be in contravention of that anyway
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Theoretically, under 4.6-7 of that legislation.

I don't claim to know anything about Giraffes, but it's the same old story, spitting in the soup of good zoos who play by the rules and actually believe in the scientific principles involved.
 
Blossom said:
Surely any zoo can stay out of an EEP or ESB, they just don't join EAZA, isn't that correct? Presumably NAZF are not EAZA members, therefore not in the EEP for giraffes and can do whatever they want. The other zoo which sold the female must not be an EAZA member either, or they would not be able to sell their giraffe, is that right?

Regarding zoo licences, does the SSSMZP not state that a zoo should not knowingly hybridise animals, would they not be in contravention of that anyway and therefore face problems there?
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Yes, to your first point, that was my point exactly in response to a post made by somebody else, questioning whether NAZF should be allowed to do this.

As for the SSSMZP, in practice I would be interested to see a case where this was cause for a licence to be revoked. Some species are knowingly bred as generics by a number of zoos, others are bred generically within EEP and ESB recommendations. I don't believe there would be consequences with zoo licensing if the zoo bred from its giraffes, I'd be interested if you'd heard different, but to go back to my point before, nor do I believe there should be any formal consequences if the zoo is not part of BIAZA, or an EEP/ESB.
 
johnstoni said:
I don't believe there would be consequences with zoo licensing if the zoo bred from its giraffes.
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Presumably a zoo licence is issued on the grounds of safety, hygeine and general welfare and housing, rather than technicalities of animal breeding and management.
It does seem that NAZF operate firmly outside the main zoo official circles though.
 
Pertinax said:
Presumably a zoo licence is issued on the grounds of safety, hygeine and general welfare and housing, rather than technicalities of animal breeding and management.
It does seem that NAZF operate firmly outside the main zoo official circles though.
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Not any more. If you take a look a the SSSMZP, the zoo licence is now quite complex, and responisble animal breeding and management form a large part of it. Am I right in thinking that Dartmoor wildlife park got into some trouble (pre Mee family) for breeding tigers outside of an official breeding programme? Could NAZF fall foul to this with the giraffes?
 
I was under the impression Dartmoor was a BIAZA member at the time and had signed its tigers over to the EEP. However, I don't believe the council would have pursued this without the pressure from CAPS and others, and in the context of a multitude of welfare issues at the Park.

If NAZF had joined an EEP, and had recieved EEP animals, then I would expect them to face consequences for abusing their responsibilities with the animals they had been entrusted with to manage and conserve.

In the absence of this, and based on the SSSMZP, I would still not expect a local council to be motivated to take action against the zoo unless pressure was applied externally (from CAPS, enraged giraffe EEP supporters etc etc).

Again, I find it difficult to make this point in the context of a zoo that I am not fond of, and find hard to defend, but I wish to defend the principle of autonomy, even when this is and should be met with disapproval from the wider zoo community. When Howletts lost a number of banded langurs (mitred and nominate race), and decided to combine some of its remaining generic 'banded' langurs into larger, mixed groups, I would have been saddened to have seen the local council intervene and reprimand them, especially, as with giraffe, some genetic overlap does occur in the wild. Equally, while I disagree with zoos continuing to breed generic lions, I would be worried if local authorities suddenly took it upon themselves to punish or threaten collections that did choose to breed such animals.

I think revoking a licence when the behaviour of NAZF is so clearly in the minority in this country is taking a sledgehammer to a crack a nut, and I hope this doesn't happen from a resulting wider furore about this (rather unwise IMO) path that they are taking with their giraffe plans.
 
I would love to say excellent news for them,which it is,but its bad news for the Giraffe studbook as its yet another Hybrid Giraffe that didn't need to be born.So now when anyone visits Noahs they can see hybrid Giraffes and zebras all in the same paddock,cannot think of anywhere else in the UK that can make that claim!!!!
 
zoogiraffe said:
I would love to say excellent news for them,which it is,but its bad news for the Giraffe studbook as its yet another Hybrid Giraffe that didn't need to be born.So now when anyone visits Noahs they can see hybrid Giraffes and zebras all in the same paddock,cannot think of anywhere else in the UK that can make that claim!!!!
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Was thinking earlier, looking a couple of years into the future unless they opt to sell him (and can find a mug willing to buy him!) then will they have any choice other choice than to castrate and keep him? Because with them being none Biaza, Eaza or EEP I'd assume he wouldn't get a place in any of the exsisting managed batchelor groups within the UK (at least the recieving collection would be going against EEP by taking him off NAZF??)
 
I would of liked for NAZF to send the male they have away (The question is where?) and bringing a new pure bred Reticulated in but I doubt that very much.
 
Jordan-Jaguar97 said:
I would of liked for NAZF to send the male they have away (The question is where?) and bringing a new pure bred Reticulated in but I doubt that very much.
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Probably better if they sent the female away, assuming it is pure bred , and bring in more hybrids! How did they get the female in the first place?
 
Just send them to the US, all of our giraffes, except for a few (and all the Masais), are hybrids.
 
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