Global Captive Orca Population

[A MermaidNamedMiranda]

Hello, I just joined the site. I would like to say that what has happened to the Kamogawa/Nagoya pods is beyond shocking and distressing. I have loved this family since I found them on YouTube in 2015. I found Kamogawa first, which led me to Nagoya, shortly after Earth joined Lynn and Stella.
What GranVista has done, is unconscionable. They were obviously counting on Lovey's calf for their star attraction. I agree with you that Stella was not in the original plan. I believe that she is pregnant and that is why they have taken her. She was the back up plan, just in case Lovey's calf did not survive. These people are businessmen and they would have protected their investment with insurance. Of course, I could be wrong, but taking Stella makes no sense otherwise. She is 36 years old and has not performed a high energy show since moving to Nagoya in 2012. That said, she was trained at Kamogawa and is the most professional of the three. I believe Lara will be the one joining her.
I was very sorry to read about the Marineland pod. Given the circumstances, the logical solution should have been to move the Kamogawa pod to Suma, leaving their facilities available for the Marineland pod to stay together and leaving the Nagoya pod intact. But, as I said, I believe that Stella is pregnant. The video of her transfer has been taken down. No surprise there.
My Japanese is not at the level to converse with people on their videos. I can translate comments, but responding is difficult, so I was very relieved to find this forum. Your information has been invaluable, but disheartening. Thank you.

 

[katinakalinakaterina]

It seems strange and risky to move a pregnant female to a new facility with no experience of caring for orcas let alone a pregnant female or a calf, but then again Chimelong moved Katenka towards the end of her pregnancy so it may not be that risky, I think they used to transfer whales via barge when they moved them between Kamogawa/Nagoya if I remember right.

I'm not sure what the park situation currently is, does Granvista own Kamogawa and Kobe and they essentially leased the whales to Nagoya originally (although Nagoya own Earth and Lynn). I wonder if the plan is to do waterworks at Kobe which could be why they have gone with Stella, although as stated she hasn't performed in these kind of shows since she moved to Nagoya but by all accounts she is a reliable animal. Had all four of the Marineland whales moved as planned, it would have made more sense to move the Nagoya whales to Kobe and Marineland whales to Nagoya due to space availability 3 vs 4, the pools at Kobe look very small from the plans online. They could also have hired some of the Marineland staff to stay on with the whales. This would have allowed them to avoid splitting them up and they could have moved Moana/Inouk as needed for breeding - I'm going out on a limb saying they would have avoided using Keijo for the simple reason that Kamogawa sold Earth to Nagoya, I'm assuming they would have wanted to avoid inbreeding.

 

[Jambo]

Hello, I just joined the site. I would like to say that what has happened to the Kamogawa/Nagoya pods is beyond shocking and distressing. I have loved this family since I found them on YouTube in 2015. I found Kamogawa first, which led me to Nagoya, shortly after Earth joined Lynn and Stella.
What GranVista has done, is unconscionable. They were obviously counting on Lovey's calf for their star attraction. I agree with you that Stella was not in the original plan. I believe that she is pregnant and that is why they have taken her. She was the back up plan, just in case Lovey's calf did not survive. These people are businessmen and they would have protected their investment with insurance. Of course, I could be wrong, but taking Stella makes no sense otherwise. She is 36 years old and has not performed a high energy show since moving to Nagoya in 2012. That said, she was trained at Kamogawa and is the most professional of the three. I believe Lara will be the one joining her.
I was very sorry to read about the Marineland pod. Given the circumstances, the logical solution should have been to move the Kamogawa pod to Suma, leaving their facilities available for the Marineland pod to stay together and leaving the Nagoya pod intact. But, as I said, I believe that Stella is pregnant. The video of her transfer has been taken down. No surprise there.
My Japanese is not at the level to converse with people on their videos. I can translate comments, but responding is difficult, so I was very relieved to find this forum. Your information has been invaluable, but disheartening. Thank you.

I'm intrigued as to where your assumption of Stella being pregnant comes from. I don't believe Nagoya's girls have been trained for AI (correct if I'm wrong). If that is the case, that would therefore mean if Stella is pregnant, the father would be her grandson, Earth.

It would also make sense if so, as a baby calf would be a huge attraction for the opening at Suma.

 

[katinakalinakaterina]

I'm intrigued as to where your assumption of Stella being pregnant comes from. I don't believe Nagoya's girls have been trained for AI (correct if I'm wrong). If that is the case, that would therefore mean if Stella is pregnant, the father would be her grandson, Earth.

It would also make sense if so, as a baby calf would be a huge attraction for the opening at Suma.

Can't comment on Stella being pregnant or on whether the Nagoya whales are trained for AI but it seems harder to train males for AI than females (in my opinion, at least going back a few decades). A lot of captive whales are trained to allow fecal samples to be taken and the procedure for AI seems to be similar, I know there are some females that do not respond well to this, Orkid being a prime example. I think the procedure used to be for males that a trainer would get into the water whilst they were attempting to collect the semen - this is going by how Seaworld did it - and I think this is also the reason waterwork was stopped with Ulises.

 

[Jambo]

Can't comment on Stella being pregnant or on whether the Nagoya whales are trained for AI but it seems harder to train males for AI than females (in my opinion, at least going back a few decades). A lot of captive whales are trained to allow fecal samples to be taken and the procedure for AI seems to be similar, I know there are some females that do not respond well to this, Orkid being a prime example. I think the procedure used to be for males that a trainer would get into the water whilst they were attempting to collect the semen - this is going by how Seaworld did it - and I think this is also the reason waterwork was stopped with Ulises.

It does depend on the individual and how they react to the procedure. Orkid had a few well known incidents during the conducting/training of the process. Her half sister Kayla similarly didn't always respond well to the procedure too, but she wasn't as bad.

Seaworld tried to train a few of their males for the procedure but Tili by far was the best at it. A lot of them were inconsistent, Keet, Uli, Ky ect.

Seaworld also didn't get in the water with their whales during semen collection, it was done on the side of the pools. Ulises was actually removed from waterwork as he had too many sexual tendencies during waterwork so he was ruled too dangerous to do waterwork with due to their unpredictability.

 

[katinakalinakaterina]

It does depend on the individual and how they react to the procedure. Orkid had a few well known incidents during the conducting/training of the process. Her half sister Kayla similarly didn't always respond well to the procedure too, but she wasn't as bad.

Seaworld tried to train a few of their males for the procedure but Tili by far was the best at it. A lot of them were inconsistent, Keet, Uli, Ky ect.

Seaworld also didn't get in the water with their whales during semen collection, it was done on the side of the pools. Ulises was actually removed from waterwork as he had too many sexual tendencies during waterwork so he was ruled too dangerous to do waterwork with due to their unpredictability.

Fair enough, I had assumed he had begun to associate waterworks with AI which caused him to develop those tendencies with trainers which led to them stopping waterworks with him. I remember reading a paper a few years ago (kicking myself for not saving more of them back when I had access to most of the journals! But hindsight is 2020) which looked at semen samples from male killer whales in captivity and I think the males with the most samples collected were Tilikum, Ulises and Kshamenk. I do remember that Keet and Oscar were also mentioned in that paper so it is possible that Kamogawa were collaborating with Seaworld for AI purposes back then so their girls plus Stella (she would've been at Kamogawa at the time) might have been trained for it if they were working together, although she might have been left out as they would have been able to breed her naturally with Oscar and Bingo, I'm guessing Bingo wasn't included as he was fairly well represented in Japan but he would have been new genetics for SeaWorld so who knoiws, I guess there has to be some give and take.

 

[Jambo]

Fair enough, I had assumed he had begun to associate waterworks with AI which caused him to develop those tendencies with trainers which led to them stopping waterworks with him. I remember reading a paper a few years ago (kicking myself for not saving more of them back when I had access to most of the journals! But hindsight is 2020) which looked at semen samples from male killer whales in captivity and I think the males with the most samples collected were Tilikum, Ulises and Kshamenk. I do remember that Keet and Oscar were also mentioned in that paper so it is possible that Kamogawa were collaborating with Seaworld for AI purposes back then so their girls plus Stella (she would've been at Kamogawa at the time) might have been trained for it if they were working together, although she might have been left out as they would have been able to breed her naturally with Oscar and Bingo, I'm guessing Bingo wasn't included as he was fairly well represented in Japan but he would have been new genetics for SeaWorld so who knoiws, I guess there has to be some give and take.

I think Seaworld did indeed collaborate with Kamogawa back then. This was around 2010/11ish after Dawn's passing I believe. Seaworld sort of rushed to produce more whales, and collaborated with Marineland, Mundo Marino and Kamogawa for AI.

Oscar was a relatively unrepresented male, so I assume that's why he was chosen for AI training. He may have also been a better suited male personality male for the procedure. Bingo (and Stella) where also sent to Nagoya not long after, so it's likely there would've been plans in place at the time of this AI training, perhaps preventing Kamogawa from bothering with them. It'll be interesting if Lovey and Lara were trained, but I'm assuming they may have been (although not confirmed).

 

[katinakalinakaterina]

I think Seaworld did indeed collaborate with Kamogawa back then. This was around 2010/11ish after Dawn's passing I believe. Seaworld sort of rushed to produce more whales, and collaborated with Marineland, Mundo Marino and Kamogawa for AI.

Oscar was a relatively unrepresented male, so I assume that's why he was chosen for AI training. He may have also been a better suited male personality male for the procedure. Bingo (and Stella) where also sent to Nagoya not long after, so it's likely there would've been plans in place at the time of this AI training, perhaps preventing Kamogawa from bothering with them. It'll be interesting if Lovey and Lara were trained, but I'm assuming they may have been (although not confirmed).

The paper was around 2010, I can remember looking at one of the results tables and all of the males had sired 1 calf but Tilikum who had 13. They had been collecting samples from Tilikum since the late 90s which makes sense as Nakai was born in 2000 and Ulises since the early 2000s, the others were collected in 2009/10 alone I think.

Going back to Stella though, if she is pregnant and if Earth is the sire, wouldn't the calf be owned by Nagoya as is the case with Lynn? If by AI then I would imagine it would be property of Kamogawa or even Chimelong - I can't remember which facilities had an agreement in the past that ownership of calves would be alternated, first calf would be owned by x, second by y, third by x etc, it might have been SW and LP? But I can't see her being pregnant outside of an accidental mating as again, I can't see them moving a pregnant female. I can see them (Granvista) telling Nagoya to give up Stella as it does not disrupt their (Kamogawa's) business model as much as losing two of their own animals, I think at least one of their females is due to join Stella in the next few weeks and all of their females can be bred, through AI, as the youngest, Luna, will be 12 this year.

 

[Jambo]

The paper was around 2010, I can remember looking at one of the results tables and all of the males had sired 1 calf but Tilikum who had 13. They had been collecting samples from Tilikum since the late 90s which makes sense as Nakai was born in 2000 and Ulises since the early 2000s, the others were collected in 2009/10 alone I think.

Kotar was one of the first males trialed back in the early 90's but he didn't react well to it. Tili was Seaworld's only other viable male following Kotar's death, and so he therefore began training. He was quite a reliable producer.

Going back to Stella though, if she is pregnant and if Earth is the sire, wouldn't the calf be owned by Nagoya as is the case with Lynn? If by AI then I would imagine it would be property of Kamogawa or even Chimelong - I can't remember which facilities had an agreement in the past that ownership of calves would be alternated, first calf would be owned by x, second by y, third by x etc, it might have been SW and LP? But I can't see her being pregnant outside of an accidental mating as again, I can't see them moving a pregnant female.

I'm not entirely sure, but I would imagine Granvista will be the owner, if the calf is born at another facility. With that in mind, that might be a potential reason why Stella has been chosen to move elsewhere.

I think Seaworld and Loro Parque had that agreement, as Adan was apparently owned by Loro Parque (although I could be wrong).

 

[katinakalinakaterina]

Kotar was one of the first males trialed back in the early 90's but he didn't react well to it. Tili was Seaworld's only other viable male following Kotar's death, and so he therefore began training. He was quite a reliable producer.

I'm not entirely sure, but I would imagine Granvista will be the owner, if the calf is born at another facility. With that in mind, that might be a potential reason why Stella has been chosen to move elsewhere.

I think Seaworld and Loro Parque had that agreement, as Adan was apparently owned by Loro Parque (although I could be wrong).

I've done a bit of searching and it was Sea World and Harderwijk in relation to Gudrun, they 'gave' her to Sea World in return for false killer whales on a breeding loan with the agreement that they would get every second calf of hers which explains why she was bred so quickly and had such a small amount of time between calves.

 

[A MermaidNamedMiranda]

It seems strange and risky to move a pregnant female to a new facility with no experience of caring for orcas let alone a pregnant female or a calf, but then again Chimelong moved Katenka towards the end of her pregnancy so it may not be that risky, I think they used to transfer whales via barge when they moved them between Kamogawa/Nagoya if I remember right.

I'm not sure what the park situation currently is, does Granvista own Kamogawa and Kobe and they essentially leased the whales to Nagoya originally (although Nagoya own Earth and Lynn). I wonder if the plan is to do waterworks at Kobe which could be why they have gone with Stella, although as stated she hasn't performed in these kind of shows since she moved to Nagoya but by all accounts she is a reliable animal. Had all four of the Marineland whales moved as planned, it would have made more sense to move the Nagoya whales to Kobe and Marineland whales to Nagoya due to space availability 3 vs 4, the pools at Kobe look very small from the plans online. They could also have hired some of the Marineland staff to stay on with the whales. This would have allowed them to avoid splitting them up and they could have moved Moana/Inouk as needed for breeding - I'm going out on a limb saying they would have avoided using Keijo for the simple reason that Kamogawa sold Earth to Nagoya, I'm assuming they would have wanted to avoid inbreeding.

I apologize for any confusion and I want to make it very clear that I never meant to imply that Earth could be the sire. Earth has been separated from Stella and Lynn since August 29, 2022. Nagoya/Kamogawa definitely wanted to avoid inbreeding because they have separated them several times since Lynn neared 10 years old. The Kamogawa girls were precocious breeders. Stella and Lovey both conceived for the first time at 10, so they were worried about Lynn and Earth. Lynn is also a bit "special". She and Ran were both born head first. Lynn has a short attention span and tends to boycott the demonstration in the main pool, so she and Stella have only done their demonstration in the back left hand pool since. 5/22/2022 was their last time in the main pool. Earth alternates between the main and back right pool. All 3 used to come to the main pool, but Stella did not perform then, she was only there for moral support for Lynn, who is still very much a baby. Earth began boycotting and would swim back to the med pool gate several times to check on them, before eventually returning. At night, Earth and Stella would float on each side of the gate talking (clicking) while Lynn swan around. When Stella slept, Lynn would push her around the pool. She also nursed/comfort nursed longer than most calves. She bumps Stella's belly with her head. I have seen Luna do this to Lovey and Lara as well. Luna and Ran are very close.

As for the transfer of a pregnant female, Stella was pregnant with Lynn when she and Bingo moved to Nagoya. They arrived by barge on December 16, 2011 (as was stated ,Ran preceded them by truck 2 days earlier) Lynn was born on November 13, 2012. 17 months is the general length of gestation for an orca.

I do not believe that Granvista considered the emotional well-being of their orcas at all. I cannot imagine (unfortunately I can) how traumatic this has been for Stella, Earth and Lynn. Earth had been so happy to be reunited with Stella when he arrived at Nagoya. Lynn adores him and he filled the place left by Bingo for both of them. This is beyond cruel. I fear for them and also for what awaits the Kamogawa girls.

 

[PantheraLeoMelanochaita]

I believe that she is pregnant and that is why they have taken her. She was the back up plan, just in case Lovey's calf did not survive. These people are businessmen and they would have protected their investment with insurance. Of course, I could be wrong, but taking Stella makes no sense otherwise. She is 36 years old and has not performed a high energy show since moving to Nagoya in 2012. That said, she was trained at Kamogawa and is the most professional of the three. I believe Lara will be the one joining her.

Thank you for your kind words. You're right; if Stella is indeed pregnant, that would be a huge motivation for taking her back. Hopefully, with her age and experience she can help stabilize the young orcas that will likely join her at Kobe, but that can also backfire (such as the much older Katina fighting with Kayla when they were placed together).

 

[Sacchi]

Re; Nagoya and AI

They tracked Ku's ovulation levels but I think she was uncomfortable with the AI procedure itself so they stopped.

I don't think Nami lived long enough for them to train her.

Nagoya announced in 2018 that they would be working on an AI breeding program with Chimelong. I have no idea if they actually trained Lynn or Stella for it though.

In 2019 Kamogawa said they would be AI'ing their females with sperm provided by males at Chimelong, however it seems to be a separate deal to the one Nagoya made. I thought it was Nagoya / GranVista / Chimelong all working together co-operatively, but I was miss-remembering.

 

[katinakalinakaterina]

Think everyone on here knew but it has now been confirmed that Stella has been moved to Kobe.

 

[IcthyoRider]

Honestly at this point with all these issues of mismanagement and deaths I think that orcas should be phased out entirely from Japan. I have no idea how China is managing their pods, but every time I come on this thread I just get worse news than from before regarding the state of all these whales in captive care.

 

[BlobfishBoy]

Honestly at this point with all these issues of mismanagement and deaths I think that orcas should be phased out entirely from Japan. I have no idea how China is managing their pods, but every time I come on this thread I just get worse news than from before regarding the state of all these whales in captive care.

China at least has enough whales with enough genetic diversity to avoid a lot of the issues Japan has right now (also they have WAY more space, it's embarrassing how small most of the orca tanks are in Japan). Sadly Port of Nagoya didn't have much say about Stella as from what I'm reading they did not want to let her go as I'm sure they're aware of the pod dynamics that would be affected. I wonder how long Japan can keep their populations going as I believe literally all the whales currently in Japan are related. They need to see some successful AI soon if that's the plan (I'm sure they will keep trying).

 

[Haylou]

Thank you for starting this thread! My Japanese is poor and I have trouble reading some of the updates I've come across on X (formerly known as Twitter).

I found an update yesterday (also on X) which is that Lynn has been separated into a holding pool, perhaps in preparation for her transfer to Kobe Suma. I am sincerely hoping this will be the case -- that she will be reunited with her mother, Stella -- but I have heard nothing since then (see @ESpeciesism).

I agree with the collective sentiment here, that the transfer of Stella and the severing of very close family bonds, is unconscionable. It feels reassuring to have found this community of like-minds to talk to and to share updates (speculations, at this point) with.

 

[Aelita]

I understand that keeping the family units together is highly important, especially for the matriarchal units. In the long term, their management could be trying to set up the next matriarchal units (only speculation) .

Kobe and Nagoya are actually only 2 hours away from each other. Draw a line in the other direction to Chiba, and all the facilities run parallel to each other.
What could happen probably, is Lynn and Ran could rejoin Stella at Kobe-Suma, & settle down. Afterwards the facilities could concentrate on their AI efforts.

In my opinion there could be a possibility of a double or triple pregnancy, depending on the AI process and how it’s gone over the years, as Luna is also mature now. (and Lovey had Earth at 10 if I remember correctly)

And as a contingency plan, they could bring in a Chimelong male or two, as their program is going amazingly well.

With the MLF pod, their placement (unfortunately) would be a lot simpler, with Wikie and Keijo being placed at Nagoya to join Earth. Admittedly, Kobe SSW is on the West side, so their initial placement hypothetically being there first may have also been a way to minimize the flight length, even if a small amount.

I’ll also add that with the speculation surrounding MLFs habitat systems and maintenance- even though a super sized habitat is amazing, in the long term it won’t be if it’s unable to be properly maintained or serviced.

 

[Haylou]

The very latest update, from an Instagram user who recently posted a time-lapse of Stella's transfer, is that Lynn is now back in the main pool with Earth.

I wonder how long Stella will be alone. She must be absolutely heart broken, stressed, exhausted, and unable to relax wondering where Lynn is. It is nothing short of a tragedy.

It's daytime in Japan now. Let's see whether we have an update today. Why they have allowed Stella to suffer like this is beyond comprehension. And little Lynn, who was so close to her mother, is sure to be feeling it now -- immense and unnecessary loss.

 

[Sacchi]

Thank you for starting this thread! My Japanese is poor and I have trouble reading some of the updates I've come across on X (formerly known as Twitter).

I found an update yesterday (also on X) which is that Lynn has been separated into a holding pool, perhaps in preparation for her transfer to Kobe Suma. I am sincerely hoping this will be the case -- that she will be reunited with her mother, Stella -- but I have heard nothing since then (see @ESpeciesism).

I agree with the collective sentiment here, that the transfer of Stella and the severing of very close family bonds, is unconscionable. It feels reassuring to have found this community of like-minds to talk to and to share updates (speculations, at this point) with.

Welcome!. Here is the previous thread to read through, if you're interested.

And as a contingency plan, they could bring in a Chimelong male or two, as their program is going amazingly well.

The fact that Chimelong only opened 8 months ago and are already at capacity is insane.
---

At this point, Japan's only options are Chimelong or striking a deal with Loro Parque to swap a male for a female. LP have barely mentioned the whales on their social media since Kohana died. What's going on with them? Are they still breeding?