Los Angeles Zoo & Botanical Gardens Golden monkeys

patrick said:
definately, rather than waste these animals in america and europe (by letting them die out) better support singapore with their more successful endevours by sending them there (where i assume they would be very useful)...
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We could definitely use new blood. But the problem now is where to place them. We already have 12 douc langurs in our collection so in order to breed more we need to rehouse a number of them. Since few zoos have them, its really difficult to find good homes for them. We may end up having to send them to dodgy zoos in Indochina, where they may not get the best life, but they'll survive better than in temperate regions.

Is there a reintroduction program for doucs in vietnam? I'm not aware of any other than EPRC.
 
Might not be a crazy suggestion... Douc Langurs could well flourish in Northern Australia climate wheas they can't in N.America/Europe.
 
zooish, the EPRC is the only place i know with a reintroduction program.

has anyone been to zoo negara? does it live up to its reputation? do they house doucs?
 
I've been to Zoo Negara, but really long ago. However from what i've heard, little has changed. It's basically your typical Southeast Asian zoo with many rare SEA species but lacks modern management and sufficient funding. It's not as terrible as most other zoos in the region, but no where near the standard of Oz or Singapore zoos. Does it have a reputation patrick? Taiping Zoo was supposedly the better Malaysian zoo until the silly gorilla fiasco tarnished their name.

No there are 'officially' no doucs in Malaysian or Indonesian zoos for that matter. Whether any illegal animals exist, I don't know, but the records say no.
 
Douc langurs overseas

I beg to disagree. Actually, the douc langurs at Koelner Zoo have been part of the zoo for 20 odd years. Breeding was quite succesful in the formative years and only in the late 1990's did the population top off due to deaths of elderly breeding animals. Also, Basel Zoo had a small breeding group untill 1995.

For the species it would be good to have a world breeding population outside its natural home range. I guess - though not sure - that the capacity of EPRC in Cuc Phuong in Vietnam is not limitless. More douc langurs are sold on the black market (not just in Vietnam, but also Thailand, Cambodia and others).

It would be nice if the SEAZA (South East Asian zoo organisation) take a lead in implementing a cooperative zoo breeding programme for doucs and other primates (both langurs and gibbons) in SEAZA zoos. The Koeln Zoo and Singapore would be able to act as advisors.

A plan, now to implement ......!!!
 
First of all, why can't zoo's in moderate climates keep them? I don't know the complete history about them in zoo Cologne but afaik they didn't do too bad even if they aren't kept at ideal conditions. With the massive-sized greenhouses some european zoo's have or are building, i don't see why they can't be held succesfully by european zoo's.

A spacious outdoor area for the summer and a good indoor greenhouse area in the winter and all you need to do is make sure they aren't disturbed by the visitors too much at which Singapore is allready apprantly succeeding.

I much rather see these great species be held indoors by wealthy european organizations then dodgy east-asian ones. If you all are still hesitant, why not start at Miami Metro Zoo and if they flourish there keep distributing them over the USA amongst wealthy organizations that can afford decent exhibits for them...
 
jwer said:
A spacious outdoor area for the summer and a good indoor greenhouse area in the winter and all you need to do is make sure they aren't disturbed by the visitors too much at which Singapore is allready apprantly succeeding.
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not exactly. as i mentioned earlier, the issue of being able to provide a sufficient amount of favoured browse during the winter months can be quite problematic for zoos in temperate climates, not to mention expensive.

likewise with koalas and other fussy leaf-eating species.
 
Allready, quite a few langur species are kept satisfactory at european zoo's and as far as i know they are all leaf-eaters... The Douc's could probably be switched to another more easily available food. Since Cologne can keep them alive for 20 years or more apparantly it ain't that impossible.

But even if they proove impossible eaters, it's allready possible for some (now 6) european zoo's to keep koala's by importing fresh browse for them, so why not for Douc's...

Wouldn't the fact that if a european zoo would take them on despite the fact it's expensive be proof that the animals are in good hands (as in, they will receive appropriate health-care and not be sold off to dodgy dealers).

Allthough, i would still applaud them going to zoo's in hot climates first, but only if these zoo's are highly respectable institutions which as far as i know aren't too many. I guess my point is, after all good institutions in good climates hold them i rather see them in a GOOD institution in a moderate climate then in a dodgy zoo in a hot climate.
 
Yes, there ae plenty of Langurs in European/temperate zoos, but most species seem easier to keep than Doucs. Some, like the Hanuman Langur have a seemingly much tougher constitution and temperament which allows them to thrive under lost any conditions.. Doucs seem to be at the other end of the scale, very delicate, more nervous and perhaps prone to illnesses caused by stress. Cologne lost several babies when their Doucs first arrived, from still births and miscarriages -probably induced by the shock of importation, diet change and captivity.. But they have managed better than any other European zoo to maintain the small group over a long period, though it hasn't really thrived.

Another species with a similar history to Douc Langurs in captivity is the remarkable-looking Proboscis Monkey- it could be seen in several collections when imported in 1960's/70's but all the groups have failed over the years.
 
london zoo has/had hanuman langurs, living in an outdoor exhibit with the sloth bears, and previously muntjac and gibbons too. they seemed to thrive in this exhibit, and have bred, but there were two noticeable design features of this exhibit...
1-the animals were quite a distance from the public, if they wanted to be. they could access the second level of the old mappin terraces, which is quite far from visitors. obviously this reduced stress.
2-permanent access to a heated indoor area, allowing the animals to regulate their environment.
nonetheless, the langurs lost a baby in 2004, or maybe 2003, when a sudden rainstorm frightened the mother who dropped the baby in the exhibit:(
 
hanuman or common langurs are huge! in india i was supprised to see that a langur species actually reigned over macaques - but thats the way it is, the macaques are scared of them, though you often see them in very close proximity to eachother nonetheless.

both these monkey species (common langurs and rhesus macaques) are pretty well adapted to cooler weather. whilst they are far from being a true temperate primate like the golden langur or japanese macaque, i have seen both species in darjeeling, which is pretty high up there in the himalaya and can be bloody freezing cold.

its no supprise to me then that common langurs in zoos are hardier than most other langur species. as their name suggests, they are probably the most common of all the langur species worldwide, no doubt due to their ability to survive in a wide spectrum of different environments.
 
Hanuman Langurs are a GREAT zoo exhibit. As Patrick said, they're very big, -(and quite aggressive) in captivity they show well being very active and alert, bounding around etc. Coupled with that- easy to keep and breed- what better Primate exhibit than that?
There are several subspecies/races- the ones at London are the Sri Lankan race. This group started from a few original animals bred at Bristol and Twycross Zoos(neither of which keep them any more) and then further breeding at London. They seem to do very well on the old Mappin terraces- this concrete monolith reminds me rather of the rocky outcrops or old palaces they often inhabit in India. They obviously have no problem coexisting with a couple of sloth bears. Their indoor quarters are pretty basic- one of the original old bear dens underneath the Terraces, I think, but its good enough for them to prosper. I think its the Langurs that make this mixed exhibit work. I'd like to see this species kept in more UK zoos but at present its the Orange and Black Javan Langurs which zoos seem to want to keep..
 
melbourne have a pair of (black) javans that they have stopped breeding so they can phase them out. seems it will be all francois' here in australasia, though adelaide seem intent on keeping duskys at least for the medium term..

sloth bears and langurs would be a very interesting exhibit....
 
yea, on interesting exhibits, what about manned wolves and anteaters, i have heard zoos in the region want to try this
 
edinburgh zoo has aneaters and maned wolves, but im not 100% sure if its a fully mixed arrangement, or if they just live side by side...
im sure if a zoo was imaginative and bold enough we could acheive a mixed species exhibit of sun bears and perhaps white-cheeked gibbons here in australia. during my time in london i also found the hanuman langurs quite appealing, but during the cold weather they had a tendency, and who could blame them really, to hide away in the basic bear den shelter you described grant! though i have fond memories of them feeding in the bushes and trees in the outdoor exhibit in the summer.
if ever a zoo started in tasmania, these lanngurs would make for a great exhibit.
 
well it seems we have pretty much agreed that there is a plethora (thats right glyn a PLETHORA! ;)) of primate species, better adapted to the cooler climates of the northern hemisphere that at present are not being taken advantage of..

as for glyns' suggestion of gibbons and sunbears - that just instinctively materialises images of apes being eaten in my head. firsty, sunbears are the most arboreal of all the bear species and are pretty skillful climbers. of course the gibbons are much more agile up there, and simple design features could provide "safe zones" for the apes, but when on the ground, gibbons are far less agile and speedier than most monkeys, who tend to run on for limbs rather than the awkward bipedal gait of a gibbon.
 
a plethora you say? ;)
i still reckon you could get away with it....lots of safe zones as you said, and designing the branches so that it would be impossible for a sun bear to corner a gibbon. lots of live trees would be better, as gibbons are the fastest non-flying animals in the canopy im sure they could out-manouvre a sunny up a moreton bay fig tree.
the exhibit could always just be designed so that the animals couldnt mix at all, like adelaides sumatran tigers and orangs, but wheres the fun in that. theres been brave attempts at mixed species exhibits so far...lions and meerkats, tigers and otters, white rhino and cheetah, sloth bear and primates/deer, also rhesus macaques, south american bears with coati, timber wolves and black bears...i reckon it could be done.
 
or....the exhibit could be designed that would restrict gibbons to safe zones, but giving sun bears free access...
the main exhibit could be a largish, island type thing which would be used exclusively for the bears. but a series of islands, which the bears could reach by crossing a shallow sand bar, would contain the gibbons. here on their islands, a vast network of ropes and climbing structures would encourage them to stay up in the trees. ropes could connect a series of gibbon trees, effectively preventing the sun bears from following...whilst at ground level a stack of ropes, suspended like vines, would provide the gibbons with a direct link to the canopy. this way, if a bear cornered a gibbon at ground level safety would never be more than a quick swing away...
you could always condition the gibbons to just spend most of their time in the trees anyway. during the experimental phase, i would probably stick to white-cheeked gibbons or siamangs. a silvery gibbon eaten by a sun bear. not good.
wow what a plethora of suggestions ive just posted ;)
 
glyn said:
the exhibit could always just be designed so that the animals couldnt mix at all, like adelaides sumatran tigers and orangs, but wheres the fun in that. theres been brave attempts at mixed species exhibits so far...lions and meerkats, tigers and otters, white rhino and cheetah, sloth bear and primates/deer, also rhesus macaques, south american bears with coati, timber wolves and black bears...i reckon it could be done.
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The sloth bear/primate one failed. Last year a macaque was killed by a sloth bear sharing its exhibit in a European zoo if im not mistaken. :(

We tried mixing sloth bears with Indian crested porcupines in Singapore, while there was no major problem, the bears seemed to be bullied by the porcupines and it led to the bears retreating towards the back of the exhibit making them less visible. The porcupines were removed and the bears stayed around the front more.

I don't think a sun bear would intentionally kill a gibbon but any kind of conflict between the 2 species could lead to serious injuries though. It could work but it has to be monitored closely to see if the animals are benefiting from such a mix or are simply just stressed out by it.
 
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