golden snub-nosed monkeys coming back to europe thoughts?

gerome

gerome

Well-Known Member
golden snub-nosed monkeys coming back to europe thoughts?

I read article that said that golden snub-nosed monkeys are coming to europe I would like to know what the community thinks of this.
 
I think if they were to come to the Uk, they would most likely go where the japanese macaques are kept at Edinburgh zoo
 
Come to think of it, I hadn’t heard anything about a fee nor how much is it. Not to say there isn’t any, I just don’t remember seeing or hearing anything about it.

My initial reaction to the news from Beuval was “hmm yess monke…”. But I got a bit jaded after the smoke settled down and Pairi Daiza was confirmed to get the golden simians. I mean cool beans but it’s not like the future generations will get to enjoy these animals after ten years. I also fear that the two zoos might face LA’s fate, especially with how shaky the world feels.

I hope I can see them in Beauval or PD though.
 
Is it known how much they paid for loaning golden snub-nosed monkeys? And whether the zoo expects the loan would financially pay?

One can name many more animals which are just as unique but zoos in Europe don't care about. Proboscis monkeys in Arnhem were also unique (and closely related) but I never heard they actually brought significant extra attendance. With douc langurs it is even worse - Western zoos generally decided they are too much trouble and don't want to keep them.
 
gerome said:
I think this less of concern because they are not that popular compared to giant pandas.
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The main reason is that they don't want the Western facilities to pay large amounts of money to China b/c that money may not be used for conservation.
Jurek7 said:
One can name many more animals which are just as unique but zoos in Europe don't care about. Proboscis monkeys in Arnhem were also unique (and closely related) but I never heard they actually brought significant extra attendance. With douc langurs it is even worse - Western zoos generally decided they are too much trouble and don't want to keep them.
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Proboscis Monkeys have very specialized diets that most Western facilities might find difficult to satisfy. The climates of Southern Miami may allow the facilities to plant the Bornean plants, but that depends on whether those facilities would like to invest for a monkey species. Beauval and Chelby in Europe hold red-shanked doucs, and Nashville Zoo in the US is going to receive them from Thailand.
 
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The scheme is a waste of resources and completely unnecessary for the involved animals. Many other primate species are in need of more housing space and no one cares...
And it is quite dubious whether China is a reliable conservation partner.

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202411/28/WS674826fba310f1265a1d01ae.html

"This arrangement is similar to the international exchange and cooperation agreements for giant pandas."

This is not what European zoos need nor is this what golden snub-nosed monkey conservation needs.
 
PossumRoach said:
Come to think of it, I hadn’t heard anything about a fee nor how much is it. Not to say there isn’t any, I just don’t remember seeing or hearing anything about it.
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Jurek7 said:
Is it known how much they paid for loaning golden snub-nosed monkeys? And whether the zoo expects the loan would financially pay?
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I suspect that the monkeys won't have a big fee, and maybe there's none. I suspect that, tho the facilities that are going to house the monkeys are great ones, they were selected because they have made deals with China before, and China is quite happy with the facilities. But I might be wrong so don't take this too seriously. And it opens the questin on what facility could be next in line, and if there's even a facility at all!
 
I've been wondering on what zoo that holds pandas in europe could also hold th esub-nosed monkeys. So there's five collections that have or will in the near future, but have already had agreements with China. I've ranked the zoos on how likely they will hold the monkeys. So here's the list:
  1. Berlin Zoo, Germany
  2. Ouwehands Dierenpark, Netherlands
  3. Copenhagen Zoo, Denmark
  4. Tiergarten Schönbrunn, Austria
  5. Madrid Zoo & Aquarium, Spain
Reason for my picks: Obviously the last one had to be Madrid. If there's money involved with the monkey, I think they couldn't afford having both the pandas and the monkeys, and they don't have the facilities for them. Tiergarten Schönbrunn is low because the cooperation with Taiwan with a pangolin project, which I think that China doesn't like, so the zoo will likely host only the pandas. I don't have anything to say with Copenhagen Zoo so I think the middle is a safe bet. Both Berlin and Ouwehands are the most likely for me. They both have very strong possibilties, Berlin has a strong primate collection and Ouwehands has some rare animals, so both are strong conections.
Maybe there's a fee for the animals, and that could also affect the ranking, so that's a thing to consider.
To be fair, I don't know what is the status of the political situation with China with all these countries and I don't know the interests of some of the zoos mentioned, so feel free to correct me.
 
Panda_Fan said:
Tiergarten Schönbrunn is low because the cooperation with Taiwan with a pangolin project, which I think that China doesn't like, so the zoo will likely host only the pandas
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That's certainly one way of describing ROC-PRC relations

I suppose they could form a big draw to the new primate house Berlin intends to build. I hope not though. Nothing I can really add that hasn't already been said but the PRC has proven itself an unreliable and in many ways malicious partner with the panda loaning in recent years (something that applies to much of Western-PRC relations), and what with the panda loaning scheme being categorically useless for the actual conservation of the animals and an unneeded expense for many zoos that partake in it I find this new adventure to be, if I'm honest, an utterly stupid endeavour.

Yes, these monkeys are very different to pandas in terms of husbandry. But it's the principle that matters, moreso even than the eye-watering cost the PRC will inevitably charge to house them. Contrast that with the aforementioned Taiwanese pangolin project, and I know which I - and most other Zoochatters and zoo enthusiasts - would rather support.

I'm glad the UK no longer has pandas. They aren't leaving the continent any time soon, especially with Berlin's breeding success, but hopefully closer ties with the ROC will start to phase them out. That'll never happen but one can hope I suppose, and at least golden snub-nosed monkeys don't require as much space resulting in the bulldozing of actually relevant and interesting exhibits.
 
cerperal said:
That's certainly one way of describing ROC-PRC relations

I suppose they could form a big draw to the new primate house Berlin intends to build. I hope not though. Nothing I can really add that hasn't already been said but the PRC has proven itself an unreliable and in many ways malicious partner with the panda loaning in recent years (something that applies to much of Western-PRC relations), and what with the panda loaning scheme being categorically useless for the actual conservation of the animals and an unneeded expense for many zoos that partake in it I find this new adventure to be, if I'm honest, an utterly stupid endeavour.

Yes, these monkeys are very different to pandas in terms of husbandry. But it's the principle that matters, moreso even than the eye-watering cost the PRC will inevitably charge to house them. Contrast that with the aforementioned Taiwanese pangolin project, and I know which I - and most other Zoochatters and zoo enthusiasts - would rather support.

I'm glad the UK no longer has pandas. They aren't leaving the continent any time soon, especially with Berlin's breeding success, but hopefully closer ties with the ROC will start to phase them out. That'll never happen but one can hope I suppose, and at least golden snub-nosed monkeys don't require as much space resulting in the bulldozing of actually relevant and interesting exhibits.
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I hope that China would understand that loans aren't needed anymore and would loan pandas to other collections with some requirements, but with no cost added. It breaks my heart to see 1 million euros beeing spend for the pandas at the Madrid zoo when it's in a dire situation and could use the money to improve animal husbandry. With places like Madrid and Beuval having pandas as logos is making a very difficult transition to phase-out the animals, as they're very attached to the animal. One can only hope:(.
 
Zoos interested in golden snub-nosed monkeys should be wary of market manipulations that may result in a bad deal for them. At least with giant pandas there are precedents and information zoos can look into when evaluating whether obtaining those animals is worth it considering the associated costs and benefits. It is far less known what impact golden snub-nosed monkeys would have on a present day European zoo. Zoos do know that golden snub-nosed monkeys are incredibly scarce and difficult to obtain. That scarcity has been imposed through tight regulations and restrictions by the People's Republic of China. That scarcity can make it seem as though golden snub-nosed monkeys are much more valuable than they actually are. Some European zoos may feel that they are sufficiently secure financially that they can handle this risk. Some may also feel the need to take risks to get publicity and separate themselves from other European zoos. I do like how European zoos seem more innovative and less dependent on established animal species than their North American counterparts, but golden snub-nosed monkeys are a species that I would suggest should be approached with more caution.
 
From what I know, in Copenhagen, they are not really happy with their panda situation:
- it never sustained an increase in visitor numbers
- it is expensive
- it is too bothersome to deal with all the politics involved.

In my opinion, and this is more political than zoological, all European zoos/governments should return their pandas as a strong signal to the Chinese government that China's support in the Russia/Ukraine war and the unfair trade competition is not acceptable to us Europeans. Basically, do the same trick that China does with panda diplomacy, but in reverse. Europe does not need pandas.
 
OkapiJohn said:
In my opinion, and this is more political than zoological, all European zoos/governments should return their pandas as a strong signal to the Chinese government
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I doubt that the majority of zoo directors in Europe, with singular exceptions like Zoo Prague's Miroslav Bobek, is willing to openly confront China. Furthermore, even if all zoos decided to return their giant pandas to China, there would be at least one blackleg / fink among them keeping them to have an USP. Most likely a zoo with very wealthy stakeholders...
 
OkapiJohn said:
From what I know, in Copenhagen, they are not really happy with their panda situation:
- it never sustained an increase in visitor numbers
- it is expensive
- it is too bothersome to deal with all the politics involved.

In my opinion, and this is more political than zoological, all European zoos/governments should return their pandas as a strong signal to the Chinese government that China's support in the Russia/Ukraine war and the unfair trade competition is not acceptable to us Europeans. Basically, do the same trick that China does with panda diplomacy, but in reverse. Europe does not need pandas.
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Sorry to ask, but when is the deal of Copenhagen going to end?
 
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