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[tetrapod]

Since becoming a member of ZAA I have discovered that you can't really blame the Association for situations such as you describe.

Decisions are made by the members - not the Association itself. I would imagine that the Association has had to cringe sometimes at some of the members' decisions - however, the majority [usually] seems to rule.

It is certainly true that the membership can be fickle in their alleigance to some species - think species such as Dhole and Maned Wolf for example. But, when enough members take a strong interest in a species they have proven to be capable of doing great things with that species.

The trouble can be that senior management - CEOs, Curators, Life Science Directors etc - can change over time and many newcomers arrive with a new broom ready to sweep the zoo clean or a personal favourite species that they want to see in "their" zoo. Other decisions have failed because of unforseen factors completely out of the members' control - failure of overseas programs or individual zoos to make available enough suitable animals, new quarantine protocols, unforseen budgetary constraints, all that sort of thing.

Like most of you, I would like to see a greater diversity of species in our zoos. I am confident that will eventuate. However, now is the time to consolidate what we are working with at the moment and then gradually add those new species as the membership develops the capability to manage meaningful numbers of them.

Still sceptical? Think Bolivian Squirrel Monkeys!

I would concur with this, Steve. But I would also point out that it is (or at least was) usually lead by high-ranking employees from Taronga and Melbourne who called the shots. Unfortunately their 'logic' in managing species and which ones to keep forces the direction of TAGS, for better or worse. Decisions on phasing out or mixing subspecies due to unrealistic population numbers never made any sense to me, particularly when you look at the situations in Europe and US. There are many species over here with minimal populations and highly related, without any suggestion that the zoos are just going to give up on them. I shall now get off my high horse...

Oh and the White-fronted lemurs started off at Perth not Dubbo. That was just where some animals ended up, possibly Gorge had some beforehand too? I think Pouakai in NZ also had some too. I think Perth got out of them (sent to Dubbo?), because nobody else was really interested and the TAG said 'phase-out'. Perth couldn't be bothered fighting it. Pity. Definitely think that there is room for a sizeable population of a third lemur species in Aust. Maybe with increase of private zoos, we will see a demand there.

 

[zooboy28]

Oh and the White-fronted lemurs started off at Perth not Dubbo. That was just where some animals ended up, possibly Gorge had some beforehand too? I think Pouakai in NZ also had some too. I think Perth got out of them (sent to Dubbo?), because nobody else was really interested and the TAG said 'phase-out'. Perth couldn't be bothered fighting it. Pity. Definitely think that there is room for a sizeable population of a third lemur species in Aust. Maybe with increase of private zoos, we will see a demand there.

The White-fronted Lemurs had been at TWPZ since at least 2005, and not listed as being in any other ZAA zoos since then. I have never heard of this species being kept in NZ. I think there probably is room for additional primate species in the region, especially smaller, social species, but it is probably a good idea to get some of the species with small populations well established first.

 

[nanoboy]

Is Australia really a big player in the conservation of non-native species though? Forgive the ignorance, but it feels like exotic animals in Australia are here for the viewing public and education rather than hardcore breeding programs. If this is the case, then maybe we should try to have as many different species in our zoos. How about something as simple as a raccoon?? If this is not the case, then ZAA needs to make their conservation of exotic species more visible, because all I seem to be aware of is the great work we are doing with natives.

 

[zooboy28]

Is Australia really a big player in the conservation of non-native species though? Forgive the ignorance, but it feels like exotic animals in Australia are here for the viewing public and education rather than hardcore breeding programs. If this is the case, then maybe we should try to have as many different species in our zoos. How about something as simple as a raccoon?? If this is not the case, then ZAA needs to make their conservation of exotic species more visible, because all I seem to be aware of is the great work we are doing with natives.

Conservation of species can take many forms, from reintroductions to having a captive back-up population to education. Many endangered populations would not currently benefit from reintroductions/ supplementation, as the introduced animals would be unlikely to survive and breed. Some species can be reintroduced in some parts of their range. Perth Zoo has released two Sumatran Orangutans for example. Australasian zoos are also heavily involved in international breeding programmes for endangered species, such as red panda, Sumatran tiger, etc. These populations are large, diverse and healthy, and some are periodically used for wild releases. So ZAA zoos (at least the ones with such species) do participate quite a lot in conservation. Whether they advertise this enough is another debate.

Many of the exotic species held by zoos in Australasia are not endangered (yet) and so are not really of conservation value. Regardless of whether exotic species are endangered or not, having a healthy and robust captive population is desirable, as it is sustainable and does not require collection of animals from the wild among other benefits. Having twice the number of species in ZAA zoos would mean they would be present in half the numbers, and much more at risk of "extinction".

Finally, ZAA zoos tend to focus on native, South-east Asian, African and South American species, so a number of species (including raccoons) that are common in American or European zoos are not displayed at all in the region. Also, I'm not sure if raccoons would be allowed in Australia.

 

[Ara]

A few raccoons would be interesting, and I can just see the nervous nellies in the Queensland government letting Steve have a few at Darling Downs Zoo!!!

 

[Steve Robinson]

A few raccoons would be interesting, and I can just see the nervous nellies in the Queensland government letting Steve have a few at Darling Downs Zoo!!!

You are right - Raccoons are now a no-no in Queensland.

Interesting, though, that Queensland was one of the last states in which Raccoons were held in a zoo - a privately owned zoo in Mackay owned by the widow of Perce Bullen.

 

[CGSwans]

Raccoons have proven themselves to be highly adaptive and are established in many countries outside North America, due to both deliberate and accidental releases. They will hunt and eat small mammals, birds and reptiles and probably out-compete native wildlife as well. They're one species we perhaps can't argue about being on the banned list. Thankfully, we have a member of the family present (the brown-nosed coati) and should probably consider ourselves lucky to have them, as it arguably has the same potential as the raccoon.

 

[Hix]

as it arguably has the same potential as the raccoon.

I would suggest greater potential as coatis are extremely agile climbers and are very adept in the trees.



Hix

 

[Chlidonias]

I would suggest greater potential as coatis are extremely agile climbers and are very adept in the trees.

so are raccoons. In fact, probably more so than coatis. Also they have grasping hands and so can feel around in tree holes after eggs, lizards etc.

 

[Steve Robinson]

I would suggest greater potential as coatis are extremely agile climbers and are very adept in the trees.



Hix

We've kept, and bred, both species in this country for many years and the sky has not fallen in. In those earlier days zoos were nowhere near as tightly regulated as they are today.

We certainly can argue about them being on the banned list. History does not support their inclusion on any such list.

 

[nanoboy]

We've kept, and bred, both species in this country for many years and the sky has not fallen in. In those earlier days zoos were nowhere near as tightly regulated as they are today.

We certainly can argue about them being on the banned list. History does not support their inclusion on any such list.

My thoughts exactly as there are many species in zoos that would do well if they escaped into the bush. Indeed, I have often wondered how come there aren't feral populations of species already in the local pet trade (other than say cats and dogs).

I just pulled an example out of thin air (well, that, and because I found it to be the most fascinating animal that I saw in a zoo when I visited Hong Kong), but I could have easily said.... Asiatic lion or saiga.

But coming back to the original point about Australia's place in the sun for the conservation of exotic species, zooboy did a pretty good explanation. Clearly Australia is involved in international conservation programs, despite not being common knowledge. I always got the impression that we were only directly involved in breeding programs for native species (think Zoos Victoria 20 priority species).

 

[Hix]

We've kept, and bred, both species in this country for many years and the sky has not fallen in. In those earlier days zoos were nowhere near as tightly regulated as they are today.

We certainly can argue about them being on the banned list. History does not support their inclusion on any such list.

I wasn't supporting a ban on them one way or the other, merely suggesting to nanoboy that a wild established population of coatis would be potentially a greater environmental threat a similar pop. of raccoons (in my opinion).



Hix

 

[tetrapod]

The White-fronted Lemurs had been at TWPZ since at least 2005, and not listed as being in any other ZAA zoos since then. I have never heard of this species being kept in NZ. I think there probably is room for additional primate species in the region, especially smaller, social species, but it is probably a good idea to get some of the species with small populations well established first.

... which suggests to me that the remaining Perth animals did end up at Dubbo. A sibling pair did go to NZ along with several pairs of white-handed gibbons (circa mid 90s).

Unfortunately as with most other groups there have been a trend to downsize the number of species in the country, whether they were in good breeding situations or not. I recall that Perth's Lesser Primates kept breeding Red-handed Tamarins, Western Purple-faced Langurs and White-fronted Capuchins in addition to the species still kept in the region. They also had Talapoins that I believe have ever been in Australia - unfortunately 2 males, but there were attempts to import females. Add in the breeding populations of macaques (Japanese, Lion-tail, Sulawesi Crested and even Tonkeans, plus Long-tails, Rhesus, Pig-tails, stump-tails, Bonnets) that have been eliminated, it has been a sizeable reduction of primate species over two decades. I'm not suggesting for one moment that the region could have supported good populations of all of these species, but you only have to look at the anomolous species that are still hanging on (with encouragement from the TAG) with very few individuals to see that more species could have been retained (Silvery gibbons and Spectacled langurs).
So yes definitely the region could support more species even if they are not if self-supporting populations (ie. need the occasional import of new blood from US or Europe). There are plenty of species in managed captive populations that are not necessarily 'the most endangered' that could benefit from extra holdings in Australasia.

 

[Chlidonias]

... which suggests to me that the remaining Perth animals did end up at Dubbo. A sibling pair did go to NZ along with several pairs of white-handed gibbons (circa mid 90s).

Unfortunately as with most other groups there have been a trend to downsize the number of species in the country, whether they were in good breeding situations or not. I recall that Perth's Lesser Primates kept breeding Red-handed Tamarins, Western Purple-faced Langurs and White-fronted Capuchins in addition to the species still kept in the region. They also had Talapoins that I believe have ever been in Australia - unfortunately 2 males, but there were attempts to import females.

I think Pouakai's vervets also came from Perth?

Willowbank (in Christchurch) had a talapoin at one point in its early days, and had a colony of white-fronted capuchins too into the 80s. (I saw the capuchins there, but not the talapoin).

 

[CGSwans]

We've kept, and bred, both species in this country for many years and the sky has not fallen in. In those earlier days zoos were nowhere near as tightly regulated as they are today.

We certainly can argue about them being on the banned list. History does not support their inclusion on any such list.

Let me rephrase - we can argue all we like, but I suspect it would be a lesson in futility.

 

[nanoboy]

Let me rephrase - we can argue all we like, but I suspect it would be a lesson in futility.

Most topics discussed on this site are lessons in futility, from fantasy zoos to how animals can be better conserved in the wild, to which species zoo X should keep.

 

[Hix]

I think Pouakai's vervets also came from Perth?

Willowbank (in Christchurch) had a talapoin at one point in its early days, and had a colony of white-fronted capuchins too into the 80s. (I saw the capuchins there, but not the talapoin).

I have a very crappy photo of that talapoin somewhere.



Hix

 

[Chlidonias]

I have a very crappy photo of that talapoin somewhere.

the Willowbank one? Do you have any other old Willowbank photos worth uploading? I always wished I'd seen that talapoin, because I still have never seen one.

 

[Hix]

It was an overcast day, and I think I had set the wrong ASA, so most of the pics are dark and crap. I'll see if I can find them in the next few days.



Hix

 

[tetrapod]

the Willowbank one? Do you have any other old Willowbank photos worth uploading? I always wished I'd seen that talapoin, because I still have never seen one.

I saw one of the Perth pair, and possibly at Africa Alive (Suffolk) - not the most impressive primates, sort of a dwarf vervet.