Bristol Zoo (Closed) Gorilla birth at Bristol

taun said:
Which makes a case for young males to stay in the group as long as possible, mating with an younger animals that is less dominating and a chance of rearing my help later coupling with a silverback, when the black male is removed from the group?
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Mating with a younger(less threatening) male is certainly the way some desocialised females get pregnant. But I think in instances like that, even after a successful rearing, its unlikely to result in changing the relationship with the silverback. The female who won't let a certain male mate with her remains that way for good.

I think the longer young males can stay in their natal groups the better, for all reasons- but primarily their own social benefit.
 
Pertinax said:
I should have perhaps made it clearer. You have evidently assumed I was referring to maternal instinct, which I wasn't. Many handraised females have reared their own young. More commonly the problems they still can sometimes have are with socialising normally with other gorillas, particularly mating with adult silverbacks and so becoming pregnant in the first place- Kera being an example, as is another UK female at Twycross.
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OK, but even there you are partly wrong (but you already know, as you use "more commonly"and "sometimes"in the same sentence). I won't say that hand rearing does nothing with the behaviour of a gorilla (but so do other factors, like keepers that treat all their gorillas as their "babies"), most handraised females do mate with the silverbacks and breed as well as mother reared females. And they integrate well in groups and seem to behave well. The Twycross female is another story, a result of the terrible way Miss Molly handled monkey and ape babies (no, everything was not better in the old days in Twycross :), for those who keep writing that)
 
persimon said:
The Twycross female is another story, a result of the terrible way Miss Molly handled monkey and ape babies (no, everything was not better in the old days in Twycross :), for those who keep writing that)
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Its true Asante at Twycross was completely humanised and never properly experienced another Gorilla for several years after she was born, and yes, management, particularly handraising, of Apes there in those days wasn't ideal by any means.

I'll also agree that handraising baby Gorillas doesn't affect them all in the same way, and advances have been made in the way its done also, for example so they get earlier socialisation with adults, which seems an important factor. But the fact Kera had not bred for nine years at Bristol until now and presumably then only with the younger male Komale, indicates that for her at least, it is to do with her background, hence my comment about 'the cycle'.

It is good that two recent pairs of infants raised at Stuttgart are now being integrated into groups with adult Gorillas present (at Munich and now Dublin) at much earlier ages than previously. But still preferable, I think, that Kera's baby remains with her natal group if possible, particularly if it turned out, as sometimes happens, there were no other babies of similar age being reared in Stuttgart, so she had to be effectively reared alone initially.
 
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it is great to see that the cycle of handrearing has been stopped, the cases that it is necessary are becoming less. There are still particulair cases caused by health problems (in the case of Kera), caused by "old school management" (Wuppertal) or unknown reasons (Moscow). But it is great to see that nowadays most hand reared females rear their offspring and that the nursery will be empty again.
 
by the way, the fact that Kera didn't breed before can also be caused by Jock. He sired his last offspring in 2011 (mating december 2010/january 2011). Kera was then only 6.5 years old. Jock could have been as much the problem as Kera. Time will tell if he will breed again, either with the new female Touni or with Salome (who is also getting old).
 
persimon said:
by the way, the fact that Kera didn't breed before can also be caused by Jock. He sired his last offspring in 2011 (mating december 2010/january 2011). Kera was then only 6.5 years old. Jock could have been as much the problem as Kera. Time will tell if he will breed again, either with the new female Touni or with Salome (who is also getting old).
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The posts on the previous page clearly indicate that Jock's fertility is irrelevant in this case. It seems that neither Romina nor Kera have been willing to mate with him. Time will tell if he is more successful with Touni or Salome, although as you say, Salome will be 40 this year.

Alan
 
gentle lemur said:
The posts on the previous page clearly indicate that Jock's fertility is irrelevant in this case. It seems that neither Romina nor Kera have been willing to mate with him. Time will tell if he is more successful with Touni or Salome, although as you say, Salome will be 40 this year.

Alan
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Correct Kera, was not letting Jock get anywhere near her. Where as Komale her play mate was mating her from an early age, but presumable only recently matured enough to produce young.
 
persimon said:
Jock could have been as much the problem as Kera. Time will tell if he will breed again, either with the new female Touni or with Salome (who is also getting old).
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Possibly, but they told me Jock has never mated with Kera, while he was mating with the new (group-raised) female Touni very soon after her introduction. It was her arrival that caused the younger male Komale to be seperated as he was too interested in her for Jock's liking.

Touni appears to have assimilated into the group quickly whereas Kera didn't, and she was very much an outsider in her earlier years there.
 
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gentle lemur said:
Time will tell if he is more successful with Touni or Salome, although as you say, Salome will be 40 this year.

Alan
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I would expect the next Bristol birth to be Jock x Touni, and maybe another for Salome, but who knows for her. I don't think the other two ever let Jock come near enough to mate either of them. Romina obviously did when she conceived with Namoki, but that was nine years ago also. Again, her rather desocialised background in the past seems to mean she lacks some of the skills necessary to form a normal bond with a silverback. 'Hostile' is a description I have heard for her. I don't know if Komale has ever mated with Romina as well as Kera but its a possibility. Slightly ironic that space dictates he will probably have to leave now.

N.B. That's not a suggestion of any pregnancies at present.
 
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Its also interesting to note that Louisville in the USA have also had a Caesarian-born baby, also female, in mid March, just a few weeks after Afia was born at Bristol. The Louisville mother unfortunately died the next day. Now these two Zoos on opposite sides of the Atlantic must be facing similar decisions as how best to raise their babies.
 
Good PR work too.
I think the fortnightly Baby Blog is an excellent way of keeping the public informed: no hype, minimum fubsiness, interesting details and clear explanation of aims and objectives. Good work by the whole team at Bristol.

Alan
 
I guess Jock will have a say in the success of keeping Afia in Bristol, he doted on Namoki, let's hope he sees Afia in the same light!
 
I like her little personalised climbing frame..:)

I somehow think that if/when they finally get her back into the group- not for months yet- it will be Romina who takes charge of her. She has excellent maternal instinct, despite not breeding again since her daughter Namoki was born.
 
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Pertinax said:
I like her little personalised climbing frame..:)

I somehow think that if/when they finally get her back into the group- not for months yet- it will be Romina who takes charge of her. She has excellent maternal instinct, despite not breeding again since her daughter Namoki was born.
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I do hope so, it's such a shame that she's never had another one of her own. I wonder if she would have with a different silverback or she would just avoid any adult male.
 
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