Yep, along with 250 other species of callithricids. Boy, there's only so many concrete boxes with glass windows holding marmosets and tamarins that you can look at. It has such an old fashioned stamp collecting mentality about it.
ZSL London Zoo Gorilla Kingdom, London Zoo
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i really liked the design of the holding area, with its windows into the 'behind the scenes' section...londons other zoo, chessington adventure world,
(and i use the word zoo loosely) is currently in danger of losing its licensce because of the conditions its keeping its ten-strong gorilla troop in.
(and i use the word zoo loosely) is currently in danger of losing its licensce because of the conditions its keeping its ten-strong gorilla troop in.
how much of the clore has actually been re-done. i mean, its a big building, and had a huge collection in 2005, pre-renovation, and even then there were double ups and even triple-ups of most species. so is the clore rainforest development just an upgrade of what were once the central, outdoor exhibits? or has the whole building been redone?
This is the first that I have heard of this... Also Chessington is planning a brand new Gorilla exhibit to replace the existing one, as they are undertaking a lavish new Safari area plus a hotel etc and I think the Gorilla enclosure will be included in that.
The existing enclosure is quite adequate(similar to Howletts cages) they do have problems with the current grouping as the old Silverback 'kumba' had a couple of strokes and is now segregated(or was) with one female- the others drove him out.. and is(or was last year) only on display for a short time during the day. Any more news gladsly received.
re Glyn's comments on Whipsnade chimps(chimps = gorillas = not going off topic too much...) The only really good Chimpanzeee group in the UK is at (dare I mention the word? ssssshhhh).........Chester. This is a group of about 25, many of them born at Chester, and 'multi-male' with at least four adult males in the group. A very good display.
ZooPro- any news on whether London's male gorilla is any use in the mating department? I know they haven't introduced him to the new female Effie properly yet but could anyone tell you if he has ever mated with a female before(e.g. with the other female Zaire?)?
I found this but couldn't open the entire document. It says 'while people are admiring London's new Gorilla Kingdom, the gorillas at Chessington 'zoo' are not so lucky' etc. from two 'unpublished' reports. The enclosure IS quite old now (built about 1984 but its certainly no worse than London's old Gorilla enclosure which only closed last year- in fact its considerably larger than that and modelled on a Howletts cage, same deep litter straw, same roof etc.) The outdoor area was slightly enlarged with new public viewing just a few years ago.
Apart from Aspinalls' gorillas, its easily the most successful breeding group in UK as well and I know they are very well looked after and proud of them too. I think if the new enclosure IS going ahead, then this report will be relatively meaningless, but it could spell trouble if plans for a completely new enclosure have been dropped.
Sorry, I've no idea grantsmb. As I mentioned, the keepers were doing introductions when I was there recently, and had no time for chatter with me! I haven't checked out the ZSL website for this, but you might find something on there about their male. If I hear anything, I'll let you know.
My memory of it pre-renovation is a bit shady - mainly of row upon row of glass-fronted tamarin boxes. It's now basically a big sqaure, two-storey building, with exhibits around the outside of the square, and the centre "core" of the building is open from ground to ceiling, with tonnes of natural light coming in through the roof. The centre core is heavily planted as has a number of birds, agutis on the ground, sloth, silvery marmosets, golden-headed tamarins, and a few other critters in the open centre section. There's no barrier between the public walkway and the centre rainforest exhibit, so it's all very light and open.
Since this is such a crap description, I'll post a few photos in the next day or so.
The exhibits on the outside of the walkway (around the edges of the building) haven't changed - still lots of green-painted, glass-fronted tamarin boxes on the second floor, and the nocturnal exhibits on the lower level.
I think a few photos will certainly improve on this lame description!
I have to say I have a poor opinion of the publicity information ZSL put on their website regarding Gorilla Kingdom. Somewhere it says that this exhibit will be the first time the Gorillas( in particular the male Bobby/Bongo) have seen open sky since they/he was a baby.This is blatantly UNTRUE for all three animals. Bobby spent two years on Bristol's gorilla island with plenty of open sky. Zaire grew up in an open enclosure in Jersey. Effie lived in an open display in Berlin. I think this is portrayed as being a nice idea, but it definately isn't correct.
Just a rant- but why lie?
The enclosure seemed, to me, to have a great deal of glass viewing, which some studies have shown causes stress in captive Gorillas. Belfast zoo have reduced stress behaviour by hanging army netting over the indoor windows, and Chester zoo have planted screens in front of the glass viewing for their Mandrill group. When the original pair are finally mixed with the new female
and if they start to breed, it will be interesting to see whether ZSL move to obscure the view from the public galleries. Although this is totally subjective, the most relaxed captive Gorillas I have seen have been in the visually lacking stuctures at Howletts and Port Lympne, and to some extent Chessington, where they have height and cover. I never saw anybody charged by a male gorilla at any of these collections until Port Lympne opened 'palace of the apes', with a glass viewing gallery.
This article on Captive Gorillas in Germany, although a couple of years old, is really interesting with regard to types of Gorilla exhibit:
Gorillas in Germany - a review on the last ten years and an outlook to the future
and if they start to breed, it will be interesting to see whether ZSL move to obscure the view from the public galleries. Although this is totally subjective, the most relaxed captive Gorillas I have seen have been in the visually lacking stuctures at Howletts and Port Lympne, and to some extent Chessington, where they have height and cover. I never saw anybody charged by a male gorilla at any of these collections until Port Lympne opened 'palace of the apes', with a glass viewing gallery.
This article on Captive Gorillas in Germany, although a couple of years old, is really interesting with regard to types of Gorilla exhibit:
Gorillas in Germany - a review on the last ten years and an outlook to the future
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Yes, I've read Olaf Paterok's article a number of times- you'll note he says Gorillas need a ROOF over their heads to feel comfortable.. and he's very right.
Too many enclosures nowadays(Bristol, London Paignton,Blackpool, Belfast and many in Europe) are designed as large open grassy enclosures or islands, usually without much overhead cover, plus an indoor viewing area only a fraction of the size of the outdoors. If allowed to choose, the gorillas prefer to stay inside except when tempted out by public ' talk and feed' sessions.
Sometimes the reluctance to venture outdoors is almost 100%
London's new 'Kingdom' has the same pitfall- the 'dayroom' is a small fraction of the total space, yet I'm sure given the choice, the gorillas will use it out of preference to the outside. When I went the other day, the new female Effie, was shut outside and she just stayed very close to the door, wanting to get inside again. When I went back later, she was indoors and Bongo/Bobby and Zaire were shut outside instead. Bobby went back and forth from the door to the cave and back again to sit near the door- just waiting for it to be opened so he could go back in again... My guess is once they are a group, they will be allowed 'free choice', resulting in less use of the outdoor island.
I think Glass Windows do increase stress levels, especially with nervous or excitable males (Port Lympne's Djala in the Palace of Apes enclosure is a good example.) At London the glass viewing is very nicely done I thought. Fortunately Bongo(his proper name...) is a relatively placid male and didn't seem at all perturbed by the nearness of the visitors or the glass. It does seem a bit pointless constructing enclosures with glass viewing and then later covering it with camouflaged netting as a stress relief. This could happen in future at London too but it will make viewing the animals for large numbers of people, far less easy.
Regarding breeding. They remain confident Bongo and Effie from Berlin/Leipzig will breed. I more doubtful though I hope so too as he is a wild caught male with no offspring. But he has a very poor track record and I'm not sure how socially normal he is having been brought up in an Italian circus. What I can't actually establish is if he mates with either female. They also say that Zaire is now too old to breed, this is rubbish - she's only 33 and her ex-companion Salome(31) now at Bristol Zoo had a baby in December.
Writhedhornbill
Well-Known Member
On London zoo's website they claim to have a colony of gorillas!! Since when Has three gorillas been a colony. I don't even think all three are being held together are they.
No, only two are together at any one time at present. A 'colony' is a bit of an exaggeration but they have to make it sound exciting I suppose. A real 'colony' is like Chessington's group- ten animals and three generations- but they're getting some flack from the local council which is threatening to revoke their licence because the enclosure is not thought to be up to standard anymore(it is getting a bit shabby now)
London Zoo may be getting one or two more female Gorillas soon. One posible candidate is currently in Madrid zoo- this female is almost totally bald from hair plucking-will make a wonderful display....
London Zoo may be getting one or two more female Gorillas soon. One posible candidate is currently in Madrid zoo- this female is almost totally bald from hair plucking-will make a wonderful display....
What happened to the other two females held by London until the building work commenced? ISIS listed 1.3 Gorillas, but only Bobby and Zaire moved into the new exhibit from the original group. Were they not a socially cohesive group? It seems strange to cause stress by integrating new females when Bristol zoo for example has bred from two females previously considered unlikely to have offspring.
Zaire, the female, also appears to have some hair loss. Is this recent, I don't remember her looking like that in the old enclosure?
I also read some research, I can't recall where, a few years ago that linked underfloor heating and heated rocks to lower fertility levels in male Gorillas. As this was some time ago it may have been contradicted with more recent studies, but I thought it was interesting that London created heated rocks near the viewing gallery to keep the animals near to the public.
It is ironic that Chessington recieved such bad press around the time of the opening of Gorilla Kingdom, although I heard that the dominant male at chessington had been rejected by the group and was being held separately, does anybody know if this is true?
Zaire, the female, also appears to have some hair loss. Is this recent, I don't remember her looking like that in the old enclosure?
I also read some research, I can't recall where, a few years ago that linked underfloor heating and heated rocks to lower fertility levels in male Gorillas. As this was some time ago it may have been contradicted with more recent studies, but I thought it was interesting that London created heated rocks near the viewing gallery to keep the animals near to the public.
It is ironic that Chessington recieved such bad press around the time of the opening of Gorilla Kingdom, although I heard that the dominant male at chessington had been rejected by the group and was being held separately, does anybody know if this is true?
1. The two other females, 'Messy' and 'Minouche' were, I believe, returned to Dvur Kralov Zoo,Chzechoslovakia, where they came from a few years back. Neither were regarded as possibles for breeding as they were both older still, and Minouche underwent an emergency operation rendering her infertile anyway.
2. M & M were originaly moved to London to add to the group, but the then male 'Jock'- since moved to Bristol- wouldn't live with them, only with Zaire (I had hoped she might move with him to Bristol, but not the case.) So they were split into two pairs, not a social group. I also heard that when Bongo arrived in his place(a straight swap) the three females initially gave him a hard time, but I don't know too much about that period. I think the decision to move them again was made on their lack of breeding potential.
3.Zaire is probably still 'owned' by Jersey. She is badly plucked at present. This behaviour suddenly started some years ago when a previous silverback(Jomie) died and she was stressed living without a male. Then her hair regrew when Jock was installed and there was absolutely no sign. I think it probably started again after they were moved to the confined Hospital area while Gorilla Kingdom was built- I cannot be sure on that. She isn't 'too old to breed' yet(with a suitable male)- being 33 years old. She has one non- breeding daughter( who has one offspring in Europe)) in Belfast Zoo but also other siblings which have bred elsewhere so she's not a priority animal.
4.Underfloor heating has been put forward as a possible cause of infertility in male gorillas but I don't know if its ever been proved. At London I think the first hurdle is to find out if Bongo shows any interest in mating either female. When he lived at Bristol, he wasn't interested(sexually) in the one female 'Romina', with whom he had lived many years, and was hostile to 'Salome'- hence the exchange in 2003 for the much more aggressive 'Jock' from London- who has proved a good animal(and excellent father) at Bristol.
5. Chessington- the male Kumba(born 1969) suffered a couple of minor strokes in recent years, resulting in the group suddenly ostracising him. The first time such an event has been recorded in a captive group. He recovered well but it was final, and he has since lived with his original 'mate' Baffia,away from the others. These two go on show in the outdoor cage for a short period each day while the others are fed inside.
6 Despite recent critisism of the enclosure,(made worse by the current situation with Kumba) Chessington are soon to receive a new male- probably 'Damisi'(10 yrs) from the Paignton group. He will head the main group of eight animals. I believe a completely new enclosure for them is planned among the new developments, leaving Kumba and one or two female companions in the current enclosure.
2. M & M were originaly moved to London to add to the group, but the then male 'Jock'- since moved to Bristol- wouldn't live with them, only with Zaire (I had hoped she might move with him to Bristol, but not the case.) So they were split into two pairs, not a social group. I also heard that when Bongo arrived in his place(a straight swap) the three females initially gave him a hard time, but I don't know too much about that period. I think the decision to move them again was made on their lack of breeding potential.
3.Zaire is probably still 'owned' by Jersey. She is badly plucked at present. This behaviour suddenly started some years ago when a previous silverback(Jomie) died and she was stressed living without a male. Then her hair regrew when Jock was installed and there was absolutely no sign. I think it probably started again after they were moved to the confined Hospital area while Gorilla Kingdom was built- I cannot be sure on that. She isn't 'too old to breed' yet(with a suitable male)- being 33 years old. She has one non- breeding daughter( who has one offspring in Europe)) in Belfast Zoo but also other siblings which have bred elsewhere so she's not a priority animal.
4.Underfloor heating has been put forward as a possible cause of infertility in male gorillas but I don't know if its ever been proved. At London I think the first hurdle is to find out if Bongo shows any interest in mating either female. When he lived at Bristol, he wasn't interested(sexually) in the one female 'Romina', with whom he had lived many years, and was hostile to 'Salome'- hence the exchange in 2003 for the much more aggressive 'Jock' from London- who has proved a good animal(and excellent father) at Bristol.
5. Chessington- the male Kumba(born 1969) suffered a couple of minor strokes in recent years, resulting in the group suddenly ostracising him. The first time such an event has been recorded in a captive group. He recovered well but it was final, and he has since lived with his original 'mate' Baffia,away from the others. These two go on show in the outdoor cage for a short period each day while the others are fed inside.
6 Despite recent critisism of the enclosure,(made worse by the current situation with Kumba) Chessington are soon to receive a new male- probably 'Damisi'(10 yrs) from the Paignton group. He will head the main group of eight animals. I believe a completely new enclosure for them is planned among the new developments, leaving Kumba and one or two female companions in the current enclosure.
Has anyone visited the 'Gorilla Kingdom' lately? I'm wondering if they've managed to get all three Gorillas together yet on a permanent basis. It seems to be taking a very long time. Also any news as to if Bobby and Effie have consummated their relationship?
Any news much appreciated.
Any news much appreciated.
The Gorilla Kingdom photos are terrific in the gallery, but the domination of hot wire around parts of the exhibit is quite sad. Far too often in modern zoos there are spacious new enclsures that limit the area of the animals via hot wire.