Gorilla Kingdom or Realm of the Red Ape?

boof said:
It also goes against the theory that gorillas need a canopy over them. these gorillas come right out in the open to forage and they don't appear to be to stressed.
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Yes, I've often wondered about that too. However, I suspect they move out into the 'Bais' to forage, and interact etc for relatively short periods, and then move back into the forest again. A gorilla researcher could confirm if this is correct or not.

In captivity, there are many modern zoo exhibits where the Gorillas always seem to prefer to remain largely indoors if given the choice. In some they have to be lured outside briefly by daily feeding sessions So why don't they use the large open areas more- unless its because they don't feel happy in them?
 
A press release by ZSL at the time Gorilla Kingdom was opened stated the enclosure was supposed to replicate a 'bai', or forest clearing.....only i guess with no forest around it and plenty of hotwire. It would be safe to assume that in the wild, Gorillas have the choice, they get to assess whether or not it is safe or beneficial to spend time in these areas, and are able to retreat under cover. Could the volume of visitors be a factor influencing the apparent preference for covered spaces in captivity?
 
prefering indoors over out.....

could be the weather, too cold or too wet? visitors, could they be too annoying too loud? there are plenty of possibilities. maybe the silverback has the preferance so all other troop members follow?

be hard to tell if gorillas here would take preferance over indoors also. in australia we don't have indoor exhibits for most of our great apes. theres not much of a need becuse the weather is comparitively mild.

traongas gorillas do seem to always be keen to get a bit more distance between them and teh visitors. i'm not a fan of their exhibit at all...
 
traongas gorillas do seem to always be keen to get a bit more distance between them and teh visitors. i'm not a fan of their exhibit at all...[/QUOTE said:
I was at Taronga today.The gorillas were inside their night den when I was at their exhibit. They had access to both inside and outside. It was about 23 degrees in Sydney today, so I don't think it was to cold for them. their inside area has windows and the gorillas were sitting up against them. As usual there were brain dead ****** banging on the glass. I don't like their exhibit ever.
P.S
There is a sign saying that the 2 young males have been sent overseas and the little exhibit they have been living in is going to be home to De brazza's Guenons again.
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Hadley said:
A press release by ZSL at the time Gorilla Kingdom was opened stated the enclosure was supposed to replicate a 'bai', or forest clearing.....only i guess with no forest around it and plenty of hotwire. It would be safe to assume that in the wild, Gorillas have the choice, they get to assess whether or not it is safe or beneficial to spend time in these areas, and are able to retreat under cover. Could the volume of visitors be a factor influencing the apparent preference for covered spaces in captivity?
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Yes, London's enclosure is supposed to represent a 'Bai- it just looks like a field to me, I suppose the moat is the 'swamp' ingredient...
I think you're right that in the wild- forest = security and open bai = tempting food. So I think essentially they're drawn into the bais for the food value.

I don't think the apparent preference for cover in captivity is connected with the volume of visitors. In many enclosures the Gorillas can actually get much further away from people if they go outdoors, yet (as Boof cites) they'll sit indoors up against the glass right by people banging on the glass at them, rather than getting away from them further, outdoors.

Climate- I usually visit zoos during the summer when there's usually good weather but the behaviour is still much the same with indoor preference(if given a choice).
Example;
The two groups of batchelor males at Port Lympne have both covered (mesh) enclosures and enormous outdoor areas(like a field) where they are fed publicly twice a day, at 12 and 3 p.m. A short while before one of the two feed times, they quietly start to move outside and wait around expectently for the keeper. After eating all the food, they soon drift back 'inside' again. I've rarely, if ever, seen them outside at any other time.
 
patrick said:
prefering indoors over out.....
hard to tell if gorillas here would take preferance over indoors also. in ustralia we don't have indoor exhibits for most of our great apes. theres not much of a need becuse the weather is comparitively mild.
.
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I know Melbourne's Gorillas are normally shut out into their exhibit because there's no need for public indoor viewing. Also that the outdoor 'forest' is now pretty much that, a covered forest that they feel comfortable in.

However Zookiah posted that Rigo's favourite spot is the 'cave' and also that it was Motaba's before him. As the silverback of a group always takes first choice of resting place (and food too) it indicates to me this is the place(with a roof over them) they are happest in. I also remember seeing the silverback 'Kibabu' at Taronga Park sleeping in the 'cave' at one end of that exhibit too.

In european zoos I've seen gorillas(prmarily silverbacks) make frequent use of caves, where they are included in an enclosure, most recently at London Zoo. I'm sure it must have something to do with a feeling of security. Though they may look odd, I think in fact these caves may serve as relief from stress in some situations i.e. in otherwise open enclosures.
 
gorillas are pretty human. maybe they just like indoors. this isnt as stupid as it sounds. each gorilla has an individual personality. just as we have our favourite chair in the lounge, i imagine zoo gorillas are the same.
a 1990s study of Melbourne Zoos gorilla troop showed that within months of being released into the new exhibit, and having explored every inch of it, the animals had moreorless identified areas they liked and stuck to them only. I think this priniple could be applied to any exhibit, anywhere in the world.
Maybe the gorillas get bored, god forbid, and think to themselves'' well hey, there isnt anything new outside today, im not going to bother going over to that simulated waterfall and check out the hotwires by the fake rock wall. I might just rest here by this glass wall, make a nest, chill out, and listen to some R&B".
To this day, Taronga's gorilla troop always hang out by the eastern end of the exhibit, be it indoors or out. From a human perspective, could it be that the slight elevation, south-facing wall and warming afternoon sun and proximity to the dens makes it nicer to be there? No one would know.
Here is a largish exhibit which a whole troop of animals seems to actually 'under utilise). I use the term loosley. I guess, if you stuck a bunch people in an exhibit theyd find areas they like more than others. so theres no reason to think gorillas are any different at all.
 
glyn said:
To this day, Taronga's gorilla troop always hang out by the eastern end of the exhibit, be it indoors or out. From a human perspective, could it be that the slight elevation, south-facing wall and warming afternoon sun and proximity to the dens makes it nicer to be there? No one would know.
Here is a largish exhibit which a whole troop of animals seems to actually 'under utilise).
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I know its a long narrow moated exhibit. Is the 'eastern' end they favour the one nearest the indoor areas by any chance....? ;)
 
spot on grant. ;)

as someone said i have seen the silverback at in the cave at the other end of the exhibit but the rest of the troop seem to basically sit outside the doors to their night dens permanantly. i have always taken this as wanting more privacy - its about as far from the public as they can get (which isn't much - i have never been a fan of the taronga mcdonalds gorilla rainforest).

there are actually more than one "cave" in the melbourne exhibit. and yes they have always been a favorite of the silverbacks (pretty sure bulluman used it too). however, they tend to use one in particular, the one closest to the the first glass viweing windows. i know that there is heating elements built into the cave floor, which might offer a clear explanation, and it may indeed be only this cave that has the feature, hence its popularity...

whilst the melboure gorillas definately favour certain sections, they reguarly utise much of the exhibit. unlike taronga's "gorilla huddle" you often find the melbourne gorillas spread out accross the exhibit and you can see a different animals from any of the five or so viewing areas... they younger gorillas particuarly explore a lot (this is true of taronga also).

however the melbourne females do hang a bit in the areas near the night dens (one of the few sparsely tree'd areas interestingly) , but always thought this was because of it was a warm sunny spot with flat ground, grass and plenty of uncluttered space for the whole group, but maybe its because it near the dens?
 
mmm. maybe we should rechristen this thread-

'why do captive gorillas prefer the indoors?'

What you say about the difference between the Taronga and Melbourne animals only heightens my feeling its all 'security' based. Taronga's exhibit is open and bare- hence the group would rather be inside. Melbourne's has much better outdoor cover(plus caves) so getting back inside isn't an issue. I've many times seen gorillas shut outside 'waiting' by the doors in various other zoos too. Of course, they could be thinking about food too, after all, the very tastiest parts of the daily rations(e.g. fruits etc) are probably fed to them in their indivual night dens so gong inside has other pleasant associations.

But I still think a lack of cover is the root of this behaviour in many zoos. In some open exhibits the Gorillas will even sit bolt upright with their backs against a wall, if there's nothing better on offer for security.

On a video of a french zoo with a completely bare outdoor Gorilla island where the animals were obviously shut outside in the daytime, I saw the silverback male(with plucked arms, indicating a high level of stress) gallop to the tiny concrete cave(like a little bunker) on the island and do a forward roll into it and then lie there on his back looking out. In another shot you see him lying hidden beneath a very low log platform he must have literally crawled to get underneath. This indicates to me a strong desire to get out of the open area.

In the old enclosure at London Zoo I once saw(or rather didn't see) a silverback spend the whole afternoon hidden under a huge plastic dustbin- not normal behaviour but possibly visitor -related in that case as that cage did have a roof.
 
To get back to the original question. IMHO in a year's time 'Gorilla Kingdom' will be a little improved by the growth of the trees etc to north and east of the outdoor enclosure, screening this area from the zoo Entrance and the Reptile House; whereas I doubt if there will be much vegetation left in the indoor and semi-indoor areas of 'Realm of the Red Ape' - the outdoor areas will be better, unless the orangs start using them :rolleyes:
That artificial tree at London is unsightly, but the ones in each compartment at Chester are just as bad, and because they 'disguise' roof supports they have to be exactly in the centre of every view.
I'm not a great fan of 'theming'. Both exhibits have rather too much of the replica tourist souvenir about them for my taste, but the ZSL's has a direct conservation message while Chester's is very generalised and diffused by the range of other species on display in rather small and poorly designed exhibits. Why should Timor sparrows, New Guinea monitors etc be in the same house as the orangs? :confused:

Alan
 
Putting aethsetics aside for a moment, I suspect there will be baby Orangutans in the 'realm' before there are baby Gorillas in the 'kingdom' ;)
 
Chester will hopefully have baby borneans by the end of 2008. Also new is that Sibu is returning to the zoo.

The sumatrans will not breed until their current babies have grown up and moved away.
 
As they have recently obtained a new male, presumably Sibu will be living in the 2nd phase, with some unrelated females (he's related to two of the existing three females) Why is he coming back?
 
He is coming back because neither barcelona or Alpenheul can cope with him. He will be living probably on his own unless they do as you suggested get some more females.
 
Well, that's not good. I didn't know before he left Chester that he had a bad repuation. Is he destructive to enclosures, or aggressive to keepers or other orangutans, or perhaps both? Apenheul are very experienced with Apes. Seems strange that Chester have to take him back afterquite a long time really.. Hopefully they will get him at least one partner though.
 
Okay, now I've seen Realm of the Red Ape too.:)

I'd say that if London and Chester spent equivalent amounts of money on their respective exhibits, then Chester got much better value for their money. A complete new building with five inside/outdoor enclosures, plus two large open outdoor enclosures, plus all the built- in small animal displays, public walkways etc. Compare with London's much simpler building- and only the Gorilla part is new.

The Red Ape building is still traditionally Chester in some respects- you look DOWN on the apes in both indoor and outside areas- because they are usually(not always)on the ground. I'm not so keen on that aspecxt. The Sumatran Orangs looked very good in their indoor enclosure and some of them were using the hanging rubber(?) ropes which simulate vines in the forest- exactly as they were expected to do. It was very good to see. Unfortunately they are trashing the vegetation badly in the indoor areas and probably always will. Outside the heavier planting has got a better chance of standing up to them, I think.

I would say that the 'REalm' is a more functional building than the 'Gorilla Kingdom' though- like many Chester designs, its not an overly atttractive display. But I think it wins out simply because of its complexity and suitability for the inmates, and for what they have achieved for a similar financial outlay as London's Gorilla exhibit.
 
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