Taronga Zoo Gorilla Troop

[Chimo]

I remember one of my colleagues at Taronga saying she would hate to have Frala as her mother, or words to that effect.



Hix

Wow, I remember reading on the website after Fuzu was born that Frala has a different approach to mothering to Mouila and Kriba. Mouila is apparently very maternal so I guess Frala encourages space and independance. From what I've heard from Prague Zoo articles, her daughter Shinda has a similar personality. Kriba's daughter Kijivu has had several offspring and Shinda often takes the baby off her for a cuddle and Kijivu knows better than to argue.

 

[Chimo]

I imagine he still mates but possibly the older females are being contracepted?

Anyone?

One of Taronga's main problems is the exhibit is quite small- more than say, six or seven Gorillas and it starts to look a crowd. They could be controlling breeding for the time being and only allowing the new young pair to breed.

Yes the press release for Kipenzi's birth stated she would be Kibabu's last offspring due to his well represented genetics. This was in January 2011. His females are on contraceptives.

 

[Chimo]

That's providing Frala was compatable with the younger male- being much older he might have trouble with her- or they might be fine- they wouldn't know until they tried it. So they might just end up with whatever females were compatable with him.

It will be interesting to see how they get on. Kibali is quite an assertive gorilla but then we all know Frala is too. Kibabu was older than both Kriba and Frala so there were no problems that time but Mouila was 5 years older and could have been an issue. Fortunately, her calm and relaxed personality allowed her to accept Kibabu's takeover with dignity and the troop was formed. Can we expect the same from Frala?

 

[Chimo]

I just realised my omission that the new male is already on site. Does the entire arrangement involve having Kibali stay with a younger group of females and Frala at Taronga?

There have been assumptions made as to the age and the likelihood of the females breeding. Is Kibabu still regularly and successfully mating his females? Any pregancies known in this particular group?

Also I wonder will a fifth facility be included (once Mogo and Orana take part) for the expanding gorilla population in Australia in the medium term?
Or should I put this latter in a general thread on Aussie gorillas?

As far as I am aware, Kibabu is still capable of reproducing. From what I've heard, he will accompany his sons to Orana however if Kriba and Mouila remain at Mogo long term (later to be joined by Frala), Kibabu may remain their as the silverback of a non breeding group. Maybe Kibabu, Mouila, Kriba, Frala and any female offspring produced between Frala and Kibali. Just an idea...

In the past, it would appear there has been no problem finding homes for Taronga bred gorillas but if that did become an issue, maybe some of the offspring of Kibali may be relocated within the country and a fifth facility established. That could be a long way off however.

 

[Pertinax]

From what I've heard, he will accompany his sons to Orana however if Kriba and Mouila remain at Mogo long term (later to be joined by Frala), Kibabu may remain their as the silverback of a non breeding group.

IMO that would be far kinder to Kibabu than wrenching him away from control of a female group and making him live just with his sons. I think when silverbacks are 'retired' from breeding its far preferable if they can be kept with one or more of their existing female companions. For the younger males (such as his sons) who have never been group leaders, bachelor life is less stressful/abnormal I believe.

 

[Chimo]

IMO that would be far kinder to Kibabu than wrenching him away from control of a female group and making him live just with his sons. I think when silverbacks are 'retired' from breeding its far preferable if they can be kept with one or more of their existing female companions. For the younger males (such as his sons) who have never been group leaders, bachelor life is less stressful/abnormal I believe.

That sounds like the best course of action, especially since there is at least one, maybe more aging females no longer required for breeding at Taronga that can keep him company. Mahali could perhaps take his place in accompanying Fataki and Fuzu to Orana Park since he will be seven years old by 2015.

There are people better qualified to comment on this than I am, but from what I've seen from the Prague Zoo, taking a male from a bachelor group and introducing him to females can be easily done so if his sons were desired for breeding down the line, this could also be an option.

I've also heard that females gorillas can feel uneasy without the presence of a male (according to articles from London Zoo) so Kibabu going with the older females to Mogo may be of benefit to them too.

 

[Pertinax]

but from what I've seen from the Prague Zoo, taking a male from a bachelor group and introducing him to females can be easily done so if his sons were desired for breeding down the line, this could also be an option.

I've also heard that females gorillas can feel uneasy without the presence of a male (according to articles from London Zoo) so Kibabu going with the older females to Mogo may be of benefit to them too.

Adding a new male from a bachelor group has been done successfully a number of times now- it works best with mother-raised males (Richard was mother-reared) but some handreared ones have proved their worth breeding-wise also though its more chancy.

Females on their own- one would definately expect them to miss having a male present. However, Howletts(UK) have kept their three oldest females together without a male since their mate 'Bitam' died some years ago, and another group there have had no adult male since their male 'Kijo' died (because there was a small young in the group when he died). But in both cases there is a silverback male close by in another group.

London did make that statement, but when they changed males again more recently, there was a nine-month interval with no male at the Zoo.

 

[Chimo]

Adding a new male from a bachelor group has been done successfully a number of times now- it works best with mother-raised males (Richard was mother-reared) but some handreared ones have proved their worth breeding-wise also though its more chancy.

Females on their own- one would definately expect them to miss having a male present. However, Howletts(UK) have kept their three oldest females together without a male since their mate 'Bitam' died some years ago, and another group there have had no adult male since their male 'Kijo' died (because there was a small young in the group when he died). But in both cases there is a silverback male close by in another group.

London did make that statement, but when they changed males again more recently, there was a nine-month interval with no male at the Zoo.

Does the silverback play much of a role in reducing fighting within the troop amongst the females? I know chimps usually have their loyalties and their favourites but does Kibabu show any sort of favouritism amongst the females?

That's interesting then, so Mouila and Kriba could potentially cope fine without a silverback present if Kibabu did go to Orana with his sons.

 

[Chimo]

Adding a new male from a bachelor group has been done successfully a number of times now- it works best with mother-raised males (Richard was mother-reared) but some handreared ones have proved their worth breeding-wise also though its more chancy.

Females on their own- one would definately expect them to miss having a male present. However, Howletts(UK) have kept their three oldest females together without a male since their mate 'Bitam' died some years ago, and another group there have had no adult male since their male 'Kijo' died (because there was a small young in the group when he died). But in both cases there is a silverback male close by in another group.

London did make that statement, but when they changed males again more recently, there was a nine-month interval with no male at the Zoo.

Also, would a female gorilla have more respect for an older male or as long as a younger male is well socialised and assertive enough, does age not come into it? It seems some of the younger males, Kibabu, Motoba and Richard have been quite successful.

 

[Pertinax]

Does the silverback play much of a role in reducing fighting within the troop amongst the females? I know chimps usually have their loyalties and their favourites but does Kibabu show any sort of favouritism amongst the females?

Normally, yes he does. I can't answer about Kibabu as I don't 'know' the group.

 

[Pertinax]

Also, would a female gorilla have more respect for an older male or as long as a younger male is well socialised and assertive enough, does age not come into it? It seems some of the younger males, Kibabu, Motoba and Richard have been quite successful.

I think females respect an older, experienced male who knows how to handle them, and is powerful enough to put them in their place, more than a young 'upstart' who they may gang up against and succeed in dominating. Where a young mother-raised male (the three you mention above were all mother-raised) can usually grow into the role in time, younger handraised males sometimes have a problem in ever becoming psychologically dominant, even after becoming full grown. This sometimes results in a non-breeding 'stand-off'- such as Jersey had with Ya Kwanza and some of his females. I think nowadays few zoos risk using handraised males for that reason.

 

[Chimo]

I think females respect an older, experienced male who knows how to handle them, and is powerful enough to put them in their place, more than a young 'upstart' who they may gang up against and succeed in dominating. Where a young mother-raised male (the three you mention above were all mother-raised) can usually grow into the role in time, younger handraised males sometimes have a problem in ever becoming psychologically dominant, even after becoming full grown. This sometimes results in a non-breeding 'stand-off'- such as Jersey had with Ya Kwanza and some of his females. I think nowadays few zoos risk using handraised males for that reason.

Oh yep, I can see that. I think it was London's original male (of the three they've recently had) that had trouble controlling the females, was he handraised? I know Frala's first offspring, a male, had to be handraised and he lived his life in a Bachelor group. He was castrated young as he was never intended for breeding, probably becasue as you mentioned above, they feared he wouldn't be able to control as group.

I'm assuming he was handraised becasue Frala rejected him. Frala and Kriba both had their first offspring in 1989 but because Frala's offspring was removed, she gave birth again in 1991, while Kriba's second offspring wasn't born until 1993. I know Kijivu's offspring have been born quite close together however, sometimes with a gap of two years between them (Kiburi and Nuru).

 

[Pertinax]

I think it was London's original male (of the three they've recently had) that had trouble controlling the females, was he handraised? I know Frala's first offspring, a male, had to be handraised and he lived his life in a Bachelor group. He was castrated young as he was never intended for breeding, probably becasue as you mentioned above, they feared he wouldn't be able to control as group.

I'm assuming he was handraised becasue Frala rejected him.

London have had eight or nine Silverbacks all told in their group(s)! I think the one you are referring to was 'Bongo/Bobby,' who was the first to go into the Gorilla Kingdom- he was not very normal as he had been imported very young and then reared by a circus in Italy before spending many years in poor conditions at Rome Zoo until moving to the UK. His early background meant he was rather stunted too, and he also seemed very gentle and I think the females knew that and dominated him, at least to an extent.

Frala's first baby was 'Kukuma', the studbooks show she reared him for a year- I don't know why he was removed after that. He was indeed castrated, I am not sure why but I think it was mainly an experiment to see if castrated males could be kept successfully. He lived most of his life at Belfast, its a mixed sex group, not bachelors, and he seemed to fit in fine and was never any trouble.

Some years ago the EEP studbook co-ordinators advised against 'the use of blackback males as group leaders' (because they aren't psychologically mature enough, and females need a fully-grown silverback to lead them) in much the same way as they largely(but not always) nowadays advise the use of mother-raised males for breeding.

 

[Chimo]

London have had eight or nine Silverbacks all told in their group(s)! I think the one you are referring to was 'Bongo/Bobby,' who was the first to go into the Gorilla Kingdom- he was not very normal as he had been imported very young and then reared by a circus in Italy before spending many years in poor conditions at Rome Zoo until moving to the UK. His early background meant he was rather stunted too, and he also seemed very gentle and I think the females knew that and dominated him, at least to an extent.

Yes, it was Bobby I was referring to and that's interesting to know regarding his background. Another good example of how socialisation is important in these animals. The next male was called Yeboah wasn't he? I believe he fathered a baby before his death called Tiny who died in 2010. I know their latest male has been replaced, I heard he was mating back in 2010 with one of the females but never fathered any young during his time there.

 

[Chimo]

Frala's first baby was 'Kukuma', the studbooks show she reared him for a year- I don't know why he was removed after that. He was indeed castrated, I am not sure why but I think it was mainly an experiment to see if castrated males could be kept successfully. He lived most of his life at Belfast, its a mixed sex group, not bachelors, and he seemed to fit in fine and was never any trouble.

That's strange, I always assumed she rejected him becasue he was her firstborn and she was inexperienced, but this is obviously not the case if she reared him for a year. Was the group he was in a breeding group lead by a silverback? Do the castrated males lack the characteristics of an intact male in the same way lions do?

 

[Chimo]

Some years ago the EEP studbook co-ordinators advised against 'the use of blackback males as group leaders' (because they aren't psychologically mature enough, and females need a fully-grown silverback to lead them) in much the same way as they largely(but not always) nowadays advise the use of mother-raised males for breeding.

So were Taronga going against this recommedation by importing Kibali who turns 12 this year? I notice the male recently shipped out by the London Zoo was a blackback and never bred but Kibabu was only 12 when his first offspring was born.

 

[Pertinax]

Was the group he was in a breeding group lead by a silverback? Do the castrated males lack the characteristics of an intact male in the same way lions do?

Kukuma- Yes, there was a silverback( an infertile male) and another much younger male who is their current silverback. Kukuma did look like a large female-I never saw him so not sure how big he grew, but he didn't have thickly-haired arms or a silverback or head crest. He also had a very thin coat and was rather ugly.

 

[Pertinax]

The next male was called Yeboah wasn't he? I believe he fathered a baby before his death called Tiny who died in 2010. I know their latest male has been replaced, I heard he was mating back in 2010 with one of the females but never fathered any young during his time there.

The recent order of males at ZSL was Bobby (died)- Yeboah(died)- Kesho(replaced)- Kumbuka(present).

Kesho replaced Yeboah after his death. An entirely normal mother-raised male born in Dublin, it was amazingly bad luck when they discovered he had Klinefelter's Syndrome which causes infertility. About a year after they found that out, he was moved to a bachelor group to live with his two younger brothers from Dublin- whom he immediately recognised and started to play with as soon as he saw them again at Longleat Safari Park. Kesho was pretty much silverbacked but not quite fully developed on arrival at London. Because of his youth, he was still extremely playful, particularly with the youngest female Mjuku-after attacking and killing her baby(Tiny) when they were first put together.

 

[Pertinax]

So were Taronga going against this recommedation by importing Kibali who turns 12 this year? I notice the male recently shipped out by the London Zoo was a blackback and never bred but Kibabu was only 12 when his first offspring was born.

While I support that recomendation, some Zoos do still seem to ignore it. The average age for bringing in a new male seems around twelve- when most are silverbacks. Before that I don't think they are ready- too immature.

At London, 'Yeboah' was only a blackback but was already around twelve or thirteen yeas old - he was a late developer-possibly genetic as his father 'Arti' had been too. His successor 'Kesho' was only eleven but already silverbacked. (He would have bred but for the Klinefelter's Syndrome). So there's no hard and fast rule. But I think nine and ten year olds are too young to take over females.

In Taronga's case, there's no harm done as he's been kept with just one female since he arrived, by the time they need him to be the group leader he will be fully mature. It could have been more difficult if he'd been put with those older females when he first came though.

Breeding age- males are fertile and can breed long before they are mature. Sometimes at age 8 or 9 or even younger if they get the chance- age 6 has been recorded on more than one occassion(a recent case is the silverback 'Viatu' at Frankfurt who fathered a baby at 6 when he was still a juvenile living in his natal group at Basel). He was also an example of a young male introduced to adult females(at Frankfurt) when he was still too young- lots of fighting etc. before he settled down. Buzandi who went from Melbourne to Hanover was another example of the same thing.

 

[Chimo]

Kukuma- Yes, there was a silverback( an infertile male) and another much younger male who is their current silverback. Kukuma did look like a large female-I never saw him so not sure how big he grew, but he didn't have thickly-haired arms or a silverback or head crest. He also had a very thin coat and was rather ugly.

Was Kukuma's anaemia caused by castration? Did the other gorillas accept him as a female in the same way castrated lions are accepted as lionesses? I assume it is no longer done with gorillas.