ZSL London Zoo Gorillas at London Zoo

Jock is probably no longer an option.

Why Jock did never breed at London Regent's Park is not clear. Was it the stainless steel caged exhibit that did it ....??? Was it the fact that both females where not exactly the youngest birds on offer and had been childless for so long??? :confused:

But then, why on earth did original male Kumba bred successfully to the then young females Zaire and Salome in the first place??? :confused: If I am correct male Kumba went on to become a very successful silverback at Chessington (if though their exhibit is not exactly state-of-the-art either ....!!! :eek:

Or is it the smog and unhealthy air that somehow interferes with joyful love summer feelings to flourish in London's gorillas? Lack of Britpop? Too many nights at the local pub? Well, questions, .. questions.

The story becomes more confusing the longer you try to let it sink in ... (to be honest it won't .. it stinks .. sorry to say). Now that they have a new grassed up paddock it is even more complex.

Apparently, Zaire will not mix with young Effie (who has been rummaged around Europe several times). I personally think that it is time Zaire was sent out to a proven breeder (I do dare suggest Port Lympne Here) and let her become mother for a second and third time (there is still time for that, but not with good old ... sleepy Bongo - did he not breed at Rome Zoo once? question for Pertinax - at London). Further suggestion: get rid of the silverback male (he is no use), bring in a young well-socialised blackback male and 2 more females (one experienced young adult + perhaps her daughter) and make a real gorilla troupe!

London Zoo's record with gorillas is just not up to scratch (Is it management associated, keeper routines or a combination of both?). Does our resident panel here have anything worthwhile to say on this? ;)
 
To be honest, I will doubt they will get rid of their gorillas anytime soon. In the publicity of Gorilla Kingdom the zoo built up the characters of each ape and so now, casual zoo-goers will go to the zoo to see the "rescued" silverback or the female that had never seen the blue sky.
 
CZJimmy said:
To be honest, I will doubt they will get rid of their gorillas anytime soon. In the publicity of Gorilla Kingdom the zoo built up the characters of each ape and so now, casual zoo-goers will go to the zoo to see the "rescued" silverback or the female that had never seen the blue sky.
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Well said, that man... So you see, London's whole gorilla attraction is currently based on some hypothetical fairytales the visiting public have been spun by the publicity department. When the Duke of Edinburgh opened the exhibit he was told about the 'love triangle' between the three inmates- more fabrication- if only there was a love triangle- I don't think there is currently any relationship(s) at all - though its VERY difficult to find out anything for sure...:rolleyes:
 
jelle said:
Why Jock did never breed at London Regent's Park is not clear. Was it the stainless steel caged exhibit that did it ....??? Was it the fact that both females where not exactly the youngest birds on offer and had been childless for so long??? :confused:

But then, why on earth did original male Kumba bred successfully to the then young females Zaire and Salome in the first place??? :confused: If I am correct male Kumba went on to become a very successful silverback at Chessington (if though their exhibit is not exactly state-of-the-art either ....!!! :eek:

london Zoo's record with gorillas is just not up to scratch (Is it management associated, keeper routines or a combination of both?). Does our resident panel here have anything worthwhile to say on this? ;)
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1. Jock- Jock was a fully adult male when he came to London from France to replace the previous one(jomie) who died. There were three females for him- Zaire, Messy and Minouche, two old females from Dvur Kralow(scraping the barrel to find additional females) Jock wouldn't live with Messy, while Minouche had previously had an operation which meant she was a no hoper for breeding. So M & M were kept together, while Jock lived amicably(and I think mated with?) just with Zaire. (That's why I would have like Zaire to have gone with him when he transferred to Bristol- she might have got pregnant by him given some more time.) Jock IS (or was) an aggressive animal though- the keepers at Bristol have witnessed that(he bit Salome horribly on introduction) but has become a model silverback now he has a settled group and offspring.

2. Kumba- the 'Chessington' Kumba saga at London was an odd situation. After breeding successfully once(twice in Salome's case as she had a stillbirth first) with Zaire and Salome, they just stopped breeding altogether though they contiued living together until 1995. I believe Kumba totally lost sexual interest in his two partners, reason?- lack of stimulation, no young in group, stress caused by being too close to visitors? When he was sent back to Chessignton and new younger females, he started to father offspring within a year. Chessington's cage is basic but its decent sized and a proper group dynamic.

3. I think London's problems are mostly to do with the animals they've had, housing and management being lesser, but still an issue. Zaire has lived with the following females in the past(not all at once); Salome, then Diana, then Diana, Messy & Minouche all of them without problem. My guess is the reason she won't integrate with Effie is because she's the top animal, rather than Bongo and that he doesn't sort out any disputes...

4. I don't think that Bongo has shown any mating behaviour in the past. Its almost impossible to find out for certain. I think Zaire COULD still breed again with a proven male, Effie definately WOULD do so. Virtually any new combination with a RELIABLE male would solve the problem. They would be better forgeting about Bongo's 'wild' genes- valuable as they might be, unless they can AI from him.
 
Just got a email from the zoo stating that the Colobus monkeys will be mixed with the Gorillas later this year...
 
I have just changed the name of this thread to Gorillas at London Zoo, Orang09, please think about your Topic titles before posting.
 
So the local papers are claiming that keepers suspect 'Jookie' might be pregnant, although this just looks like journalistic interpretation of the slightly blunt press release issued by ZSL about bobby mating with her '17 times in four days'! ...I think they would have announced it if they were sure, so I guess we will have to wait and see. I was surprised to see photos of all four looking relaxed in eachother's company. I really felt London deserved criticism at first, but it looks like their perseverance may well create a very contented multi-generational group after all.
 
I hope it all go's well for London zoo, they may at last have a troop of there own, that would be a big drawcard for them, this new female could be just what the Doctor ordered and bond this group togeather
 
johnstoni said:
So the local papers are claiming that keepers suspect 'Jookie' might be pregnant. I was surprised to see photos of all four looking relaxed in eachother's company. I really felt London deserved criticism at first, but it looks like their perseverance may well create a very contented multi-generational group after all.
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With mating behaviour like that Mjuku will certainly be pregnant soon- unless of course Bobby proves infertile (the last hurdle...). My guess is the arrival of this new young female has stimulated him into mating (a typical 'zoo' situation) as she is fully subordinate and an 'incomer' into his group. They say he has also mated 'Effie' but I'm not sure if that was previously or has only just started now.

If Mjuku becomes pregnant, she will almost certainly raise the baby herself as she has good group experience at Chessington where several times I've seen her carrying her younger siblings around. (Interestingly, she may also breed before her older halfsister Buu- still in the Chessington group but without a male at present.) If 'effie' becomes pregnant, she will quite likely reject her baby as she did with her two previous ones at Berlin.

However, offspring from the (so far) unrepresented and w/caught 'Bobby/Bongo' would be great news, whether mother or handraised. Babies would improve the social cohesion in the group too.
 
Effie did not reject her babys in Berlin - she was taking good care of them but unfortunately she didn`t nurse them . I have been told by a woman who visits regularly that she had a breast infection when she had her first baby and she was in pain when the baby was suckling, which is the reason why she doesn`t allows her babys to nurse. Her last baby, a daugther named Makua, was taken away from her 5 days after birth because they baby got very eak and Effie was still not making any progress with the nursing problem.

It`s unlikely that she would do any better if she gave birth in London... but instead of handrearing the baby for years it would be worth a try to do what the keepers are doing in La Valles des Singes in France with female Gaia who is not nursing her babys neither. The keepers raised Gaia`s 2 offspring for the first months but took it to the zoo daily and showed it to Gaia and let her touch them through the fence, on a daily basis. When the babys were about 6 months they gave them back to Gaia who accepted them immediately and took them to the fence so that the keepers could bottle-feed the baby.
As result, Gaia`s 2 daugthers are perfectly normal, socialised gorillas and Gaia can enjoy motherhood.
 
Yassa+Pertinax,

I have seen the London gorilla troupe now with my own eyes. Before I was quite harsh on Bobby's credentials as a silverback and was very much in favour of a silverback change.

Obviously the 1.2 situation was not exactly ideal with an extremely dominant Zaire and Effie feeling rather insecure in her presence ... there must not have been a great deal of interaction. The introduction of a highly socially skilled female gorilla in Mjukuu has galvanised the group structure and Bobby now seems content to mate both the fertile younger gorilla females in his group. Surely, the fact that inside 4 days close on her introduction Bobby and Mjukuu mated 17 times is a very good sign. Bobby really looks more relaxed to in his environment with 0.3 adult female gorillas ...................!

It is similar to the Artis entry of the new silverback .... Surely, it is still early days, but with the continuous mating gorilla babies now seems a realistic option. I would hope London add on another young socially skilled female to really set off the group.

With regard to exhibitry, the Gorilla Kingdom is somewhat lacking in tree cover. I wish it would have been more Bai-like like in the Mikongo area where ZSL runs a gorilla conservation and habituation project. The incorporation of enclosures for colobus, diana monkeys and rainforest monitor lizards is excellent. The interpretation panels and video stories on screen are amazing and really worthwhile. From that perspective, I would really rate highly the entire exhibit. Now, with a more socially successful functioning gorilla troupe ... it seems to have come out good lately!

Please pick up a leaflet at the entrance and check out the Mikongo Conservation Project and how staff are making a difference to bushmeat+logging crisis in central Africa. You can even visit the project and hope to see some bush elephants, sitatungas, duikers, Cercopithecinae and rainforest colobus (not guereza of E.Africa)!!!!! :p
 
Yassa said:
Effie did not reject her babys in Berlin - she was taking good care of them but unfortunately she didn`t nurse them . I have been told by a woman who visits regularly that she had a breast infection when she had her first baby and she was in pain when the baby was suckling, which is the reason why she doesn`t allows her babys to nurse.
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Okay, I agree that's not rejection, but a feeding problem. One of the original females at Jersey had a similar problem and would pull her babies away from the nipple to stop them feeding. But she did get over this with her third (or fourth) baby and went on to rear others successfully. I'm sure if 'Effie' has another baby and it had to be handraised then they would do something along the lines as that you describe at Valle de Singes. This gives a normally socialised youngster which far outweighs any extra effort involved. I've heard of this being done with chimpanzees too.

Mjuku's introduction into the group seems to have changed the status quo dramatically- I'm hoping for a good outcome now and that after all this time Bobby/Bongo will become a successful breeding male- with his past history I definately wouldn't have expected it before!! :D
 
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jelle said:
. Bobby really looks more relaxed to in his environment with 0.3 adult female gorillas ...................!
I would hope London add on another young socially skilled female to really set off the group.
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Yes, things appear to have improved greatly. I imagine they will have to wait awhile before they can get another female though. Even getting 'Mjuku' was obviously something of a problem as Chessington didn't want to let one go... But if Bobby proves himself with one or more females, they will have a stronger case for asking for another e.g. one of the non-breeding ones from Blackpool perhaps (two of which came from the Apenheul group).
 
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Wasn't the female from Madrid (the nearly bald one) supposed to be coming to London at some stage or was this plan changed?

I think i read it on a post on this forum a long time ago...
 
jelle said:
I have seen the London gorilla troupe now with my own eyes. Before I was quite harsh on Bobby's credentials as a silverback and was very much in favour of a silverback change.
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Did you notice how small he is? About half the size of Akili in Artis- or any other silverback I've ever seen! He is quite nice looking facially but has a small tubby body on short little legs and a large head. I think his curious shape and size(no bigger than a large female) are due to early malnutrition when he was raised in a circus, so that he is stunted rather than genetically small- so any offspring should be normal sized. Well, I hope so...:)
 
CZJimmy said:
Wasn't the female from Madrid (the nearly bald one) supposed to be coming to London at some stage or was this plan changed?

I think i read it on a post on this forum a long time ago...
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She was, and you did, as I remember posting it. I believe the plan was changed and she(Banga) was to go to Givskud in Denmark instead. I don't know why but maybe London didn't wan't a 2nd 'bald' female.

Among the photos on the ZSL release about Bobby/Mjuku there is one of Zaire- I don't know if its the angle she's sitting in or is her hair growing back?
 
Pertinax said:
Among the photos on the ZSL release about Bobby/Mjuku there is one of Zaire- I don't know if its the angle she's sitting in or is her hair growing back?
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zaire-3908.jpg


This one?

I agree, perhaps the settled group is making her more relaxed...
 
That's the one. (They obviously put it in so she wasn't left out...)

Looking at it again it does look like her hair is regrowing. Her 'mohican' hair cut in particular seems to have disappeared. She plucked herself badly after the male 'Jomie' died, (after having never done it before)- then regrew it again when the next male 'Jock' came. So this could happen again....
 
I still think Zaire looked better than photos I'd seen even in March of this year. I guess she had the stress of moving and then effie, now it's all a lot more settled, it will be interesting to see the next big introduction, of the colobus while the gorillas are outside on the island.

Given the work ZSL has done so far with target training I am hopeful for some level of collaboration should effie not be able to nurse, rather than a full hand-rearing-in-isolation effort.
 
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