Government plans to shake up private keeping of monkeys

Personally I think we would benifit from tighter controls on keeping animals full stop. Houses being rated based on space and location and people having a basic rating (say fish and small rodents) and increasing this through education. Too many animals exotic and non exotic are mistreated, but there shouldn't be any animal that can't be kept in the proper environment by an appropriate person.
 
I do not think that primates make good pets at all and statistically this is born out by a lot of inadequate husbandry for these animals. In my opinion they shouldn't be kept anywhere outside of a zoo or similar facility.
I guess it's a matter of agreeing to disagree here. I still don't see the difference between other "wild" pets kept and monkeys. Each animal has it's own welfare needs and each animal can be abused by owners who don't want to meet those, wether it's a monkey or something more common like a rabbit or a ferret and wether it's a private owner or a zoo. In fact in absolute numbers of mistreated animals, those common species are subject to way more harm then a more difficult to keep species like certain monkeys. In either case laws should protect animals from ending up in those bad situations, and I don't think we should threat those two groups of species any different from each other.
 
I guess it's a matter of agreeing to disagree here. I still don't see the difference between other "wild" pets kept and monkeys. Each animal has it's own welfare needs and each animal can be abused by owners who don't want to meet those, wether it's a monkey or something more common like a rabbit or a ferret and wether it's a private owner or a zoo. In fact in absolute numbers of mistreated animals, those common species are subject to way more harm then a more difficult to keep species like certain monkeys. In either case laws should protect animals from ending up in those bad situations, and I don't think we should threat those two groups of species any different from each other.

Yes, I totally agree, ideally the law should protect animals whether primates or rabbits from mistreatment and abuse in captivity.

Furthermore I also agree that in Europe the rates of poor welfare issues in domestic pets like rabbits and guinea pigs are without a doubt far higher than with primates because the latter have nowhere near the availability of the former as pets.

However, there are enormous differences between the complexity of husbandry required by a rabbit (unless we are talking about the endangered lagomorph species I mentioned earlier in the thread) and a Callitrichid. The husbandry of these two mammals are just not comparable and as I've said I can point you to the literature which will illustrate this to you.

Barring cases of abuse and mistreatment I do think there is a case that primate ownership should be subject to far tighter controls than say a rabbit though to be honest the laws in the UK seem far more comprehensive than in many other countries in this regard.
 
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However, there are enormous differences between the complexity of husbandry required by a rabbit (unless we are talking about the endangered lagomorph species I mentioned earlier in the thread) and a Callitrichid.

The husbandry of these two mammals are just not comparable and as I've said I can point you to the literature which will illustrate this to you.
Without doubt that of a callitrichid is more difficult, you're dealing with a tropical species that is also relatively prone to diseases that humans can transmit and a diet that is far more complicated then a rabbit. That means in my opinion that the welfare minimum should just be set higher and control needs to be tighter, and to then let people decide if they find the effort worth it or not. This is a principle I apply to all species, wether it's as complex to keep as a callitrichid or a Sulawesi shrimp (those are darn difficult to keep alive except for a few species that are just difficult) or as easy as a rabbit or a Neocaridina davidi shrimp.

Targeting monkeys with a ban is in my eyes just a feel-good measure that disregards the real problem with pet abuse: the complete lack of knowledge or drive to gain this knowledge that most pet owners have and the lack of accountability for those who keep their pets in bad welfare. It shifts the focus away from "it's bad to keep a pet in bad welfare" to "it's bad to keep this species as a "pet"". I can only hope that this measure doesn't come as far as fully banning monkeys in the end, but just puts more restricting measures and more control on those who keep them.
 
Said monkey is also arboreal and needs a large amount of space, and is extremely hard to care for in general. I think that, as some of the more common exotic pets out there, monkeys should be banned because it's almost certain that people won't take care of them properly in the first place. The same should, to me, go for most other nondomesticated decently-sized mammals like otters and prairie dogs. Maybe even extend it to birds/reptiles because most of them almost certainly aren't taken care of well in captivity, but that would probably generate quite some backlash.
 
The same should, to me, go for most other nondomesticated decently-sized mammals like otters and prairie dogs. Maybe even extend it to birds/reptiles because most of them almost certainly aren't taken care of well in captivity, but that would probably generate quite some backlash.
And why include these groups but exclude fish, inverts and so-called domestic species (wether it's true domestics like dogs or species with domestic color forms)? I'be inclined to say that fish, rabbit and rodent welfare is far more troublesome then your average reptile welfare, the chances of finding the first in bad welfare in your average household is far greater then the latter. Bird species is kinda in the middle, but even for them welfare might be better then the species you exempt here. Part of the reason why such a proposal creates a backlash is because you are using differing standards to talk about similar things, seamingly only based on popularity and social acceptance of bad welfare standards rather then actual welfare.
 
Fish are very easy to take care of poorly, same with rodents, birds and herps, but at least most of those can be accommodated in a typical house (besides creatures like alligators and cranes and whatnot) and are less likely to be taken from the wild/be part of the illegal pet trade/be sold by some dodgy person who's more in it for the cash.
 
Fish are very easy to take care of poorly, same with rodents, birds and herps, but at least most of those can be accommodated in a typical house (besides creatures like alligators and cranes and whatnot) and are less likely to be taken from the wild/be part of the illegal pet trade/be sold by some dodgy person who's more in it for the cash.
Tbf cranes are relatively easy to accommodate if the space is available. Alligators I wouldn’t know about:)
 
This law only covers monkeys so as gorillas are great apes you may be in luck afterall :p
Santa always gets one of his elves to check the Dangerous Wild Animals Act and its schedules before setting out for England and Wales: so no apes or lions or cassowaries or any of the others, unless they are earmarked for someone who has the appropriate licence :D
 
The real problem for Santa is that apes will grab and eat sweets from his bag, which were meant as gifts for other people. ;)

More seriously, anybody estimated the cost of such law for the owners? These inspections and bureaucracy will come at a price in pounds and time, which will go from the budget meant for monkey's upkeeping. There was an earlier case when bureaucracy bankrupted a person running shelter for tortoises.

And if animal abuse is a problem, there is no point in singling out one group of animals. There are more abused dogs, cats or horses than monkeys, because they are much more numerous.
 
The real problem for Santa is that apes will grab and eat sweets from his bag, which were meant as gifts for other people. ;)

More seriously, anybody estimated the cost of such law for the owners? These inspections and bureaucracy will come at a price in pounds and time, which will go from the budget meant for monkey's upkeeping. There was an earlier case when bureaucracy bankrupted a person running shelter for tortoises.

And if animal abuse is a problem, there is no point in singling out one group of animals. There are more abused dogs, cats or horses than monkeys, because they are much more numerous.
I don't know the details of the tortoise keeping case - but I think it may have been rather different as no tortoises are covered by the DWA. Many animal shelters used to rely on visitors for a significant part of their income, but they were then told that they had to have zoo licences because the public could visit them (for more than a few days each year). They are more expensive than DWA licences because the inspections are more detailed; I am sure that @Andrew Swales could give lots of examples :) Consequently some of these shelters had to close.
The significance of the DWA is that it is about dangerous animals to ensure that they are kept properly and that the keeper, his or her family (if any) and the general public are safe from the dangers they pose.
 
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Fish are very easy to take care of poorly, same with rodents, birds and herps, but at least most of those can be accommodated in a typical house (besides creatures like alligators and cranes and whatnot) and are less likely to be taken from the wild/be part of the illegal pet trade/be sold by some dodgy person who's more in it for the cash.
Reptile and fish trade are both massive sectors for wild-caught animals, in most cases legal but sometimes legal when they should've been restricted already. Saltwater fish in fact are almost all taken from the wild, as captive breeding of the vast majority of species is yet to be achieved. Banning a species actually makes it more likely to have animals taken illegal from the wild, as getting animals from breeders or from legal harvesting is no longer possible.
 
I don't know the details of the tortoise keeping case - but I think it may have been rather different as no tortoises are covered by the DWA. Many animal shelters used to rely on visitors for a significant part of their income, but they were then told that they had to have zoo licences because the public could visit them (for more than a few days each year). They are more expensive than DWA licences because the inspections are more detailed; I am sure that @Andrew Swales could give lots of examples :) Consequently some of these shelters had to close.
The significance of the DWA is that it is about dangerous animals to ensure that they are kept properly and that the keeper, his or her family (if any) and the general public are safe from the dangers they pose.
There is nothing that I can think of that springs to mind which is common to the two pieces of legislation, so the list is total. In our case the cost difference is close to 10,000%...
In addition to Pet Shop licences, a third law which 'over-laps' too is the 'Performing Animals Act'.
With regard to the DWAA, it is probably ripe for a review given that the ZLA was hugely changed just a year ago, especially given the considerable relaxations made in 2007.
 
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