Have you ever visited a wildlife market?

nanoboy

nanoboy

Well-Known Member
I always come across news articles mentioning some of the notorious wildlife markets in South East Asia especially, where you can buy many endangered and exotic species both over and under the counter.

Those articles and documentaries are always heart wrenching, and I couldn't even bring myself to visit Hong Kong's Bird and Goldfish markets when I visited HK recently.

Have you ever visited any of these wildlife markets? What were your thoughts?

If you have not visited any of those countries, would the markets be on your itinerary, given that it may be your only chance to ever see some rare species?
 
I've been to a few in southeast Asia. They're not pleasant places, but I visit them deliberately to see what they are selling (not for the express purpose of seeing x or y species, but to see what is there in a general sense).
 
Was it you that was talking about a wildlife version of the kony video. i wouldnt really go to see wildlife but it would probably be a good place to film for such a video.
 
there are two types of markets as well. You've got the meat markets and you've got the live animal markets. And there are combinations of course.
 
I hear you Chlidonias. I should delete that comment about seeing rare species, as it is out of context the way I have written it. What I meant was as you phrased it: visiting just to see what was there. You've seen what's there, so now what? Do you just want to buy all the animals, or run amok in the market lopping off vendors' heads with a machete?

Jarkari, yup, I mentioned the Kony-wildlife viral video. That's a good idea, but it seems like everyone knows it is there but no one does anything. Indeed, the websites and tourist books painted the wildlife markets in HK to be must-visit stops on tour. I watched the slow loris doco a few weeks ago where the woman visited a market with hidden cameras - pretty disturbing stuff - but the market is still there, still selling slow lorises I am sure.

Here is a clip:
 
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with pressure the illegal side of it just moves out of the public eye. You can visit Bangkok's Chatuchak Weekend Market, for instance, and see nothing on view but puppies and baby squirrels...but they get raided regularly by wildlife officials and there is always a tonne of illegal and endangered stuff being seized.

I really wanted to visit the bird market in Jakarta as it is renowned for its scope and illegality, but I ran out of time.
 
Chlidonias said:
with pressure the illegal side of it just moves out of the public eye. You can visit Bangkok's Chatuchak Weekend Market, for instance, and see nothing on view but puppies and baby squirrels...but they get raided regularly by wildlife officials and there is always a tonne of illegal and endangered stuff being seized.

I really wanted to visit the bird market in Jakarta as it is renowned for its scope and illegality, but I ran out of time.
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In the West, we have this whole "man must have dominion over animals" Christian mindset. But in non-Christian countries like Buddhist Thailand and Muslim Indonesia, I wonder what part religion plays in their treatment of animals. In such overtly religious countries, I wonder how that piety stands alongside animal cruelty.
 
there is very little regard for animals in Indonesia, they are usually considered as no more than simple objects. I've seen terrible examples of cruelty there, and it is treated as commonplace. The Jakarta bird market I mentioned is the one in that video you posted (I hadn't had time to watch it earlier), and it is typical of markets I've visited. You need a strong stomach sometimes when travelling in southeast Asia, and it can be incredibly depressing.


I liked this comment under the video: "Humans... please aliens, destroy us!"
 
Chlidonias said:
there are two types of markets as well. You've got the meat markets and you've got the live animal markets. And there are combinations of course.
Click to expand...

What do people DO with the live animals? I gather that some species like pangolins end up as parts of medicines, sex drugs, etc.? Eventually do all of these species end up eaten, taken as medicine, worn as clothing or fashion accessories, or otherwise consumed?
 
some animals are sold alive to be eaten, eg it is common to see basket-loads of baby softshell turtles: some are bought as pets but most end up fried alive; and any dogs, fruit bats etc lying trussed up are for dinner. Snakes are always for "medicinal" or dietary purposes. Small lizards and things of that nature are often additionally sold as food for cage-birds. Birds in tiny cages are ubiquitous everywhere in southeast Asia. Usually they are passerines like shamas or bulbuls, kept for song, but psittacids are very common as well, small doves, etc. Most of the animals in the live markets are really for pets. Its a curious thing that the vast majority of the local people don't see the animals as "alive" in the sense Westerners now do (i.e with feelings), but they still see them as being cute and desirable as pets. They generally are impulse buys -- as is often the case in the west as well, unfortunately. Baby monkeys and so on are quite often the side-result of hunting. They are kept whilst cute but when they start maturing end up dead or, if they are "lucky", chained to a tree or stuck in a little bird-cage. Most of the markets actually cater to the locals, not to tourists with some exceptions. The very biggest markets are in the big cities like Jakarta, Bangkok, Hong Kong, etc, and these import animals from all over the world, both legally and illegally, for the relatively wealthy people. It is very common to see macaws, marmosets, iguanas, things like that, not only native Asian animals (although these are the bulk).
 
Ta answer nanoboy's original question: I would definitely go to them, just to see what is available.

Unfortunately, I've never travelled in that part of the world so have not had the opportunity.

:p

Hix
 
Hix said:
Ta answer nanoboy's original question: I would definitely go to them, just to see what is available.
Click to expand...

I´ve never been to Asia as well, but I think I wouldn´t be able to go to market like this, certainly not just by myself, it would just make me feel helpless. I can hardly handle some of European Pet Shops, this would just be too much.
But I would definitively go as a part of some "Special Wildlife Crime Solving Task Force Unit", undercover, with hidden camera and armed guys with handcuffs behind my back ;) (This would make a great TV Show, wouldn´t it?) ;)
 
We should be careful about how we judge those in developing countries from the comfort of our warm lounges.
Poverty is the greatest threat to conservation.
To achieve conservation in these areas the people who share the landscape with the wildlife need to see value in it.
How often is the baby thrown out with the bathwater?
Lets say you stop the trade in a particular species,instead of a slower adaptable & managed change.How will that effect the economy in the area that produced it.Might they then have to persue more "ethical" income such as cut down the forest for timber instead,or change to another management practice which is not sustainable or leads to the extinction of the very species we wish to protect.

Conservation is complex,its great to have a conservation ethic & discuss the issues around the subject,but tone down the judgement please.
Many stakeholders need to work together & understand each other to actually achieve real conservation.

Cheers Khakibobb
 
khakibob said:
We should be careful about how we judge those in developing countries from the comfort of our warm lounges.
Poverty is the greatest threat to conservation.
To achieve conservation in these areas the people who share the landscape with the wildlife need to see value in it.
How often is the baby thrown out with the bathwater?
Lets say you stop the trade in a particular species,instead of a slower adaptable & managed change.How will that effect the economy in the area that produced it.Might they then have to persue more "ethical" income such as cut down the forest for timber instead,or change to another management practice which is not sustainable or leads to the extinction of the very species we wish to protect.

Conservation is complex,its great to have a conservation ethic & discuss the issues around the subject,but tone down the judgement please.
Many stakeholders need to work together & understand each other to actually achieve real conservation.

Cheers Khakibobb
Click to expand...

Fair points, but they are not relevant to the issue being discussed, as these animals are destined for the pot or as pets in said developing countries. Therefore, it is a mindset that needs changing I think, which could happen only if there are laws in place that will be enforced, coupled with education. In addition, your argument from an economic standpoint does not address the abject cruelty meted out to these animals, again, because of a mindset.

Many of us sit in our comfortable lounges, true, but we have also done a fair bit of travelling, and indeed, some of us have lived in 3rd world countries. I myself worked in a 3rd world country for a few years and the locals had absolutely no respect for animals - whether domestic dogs or native wildlife. So I think that we are in an excellent position to judge.

Did you look at the YouTube video, by the way? If not, have a look, and tell me your thoughts on the market.
 
"You can see the suffering in their face."
Add this to a host of other anthropomorphic spin & my thoughts are its more about animal liberation than conservation.

If you've lived in these cultures you'd know they dont even have a word for pet never mind animal welfare.How does that give you a better platform to judge from?I would have thought from your experience you would encourage education & alternatives,rather than unachievable enforcement/prohibition.

The way to achieve conservation is to make the wildlife valuable to those who directly engage & share landscape with it.Value does not have to be monetary.

Cheers Khakibob
 
Khakibob, I think we are mixing two issues here - animal cruelty and trade of endangered species. It´s understandable - you can see both on these markets.

And when it comes to the "don´t judge" part, well, if you love animals, you will sometimes be judgemental towards people (individuals) that make them suffer. Whether it´s your neighbor torturing a dog or a dealer of endangered species on the market.

I believe, that all of us here feel very strongly about conservation and animal welfare. Sometimes, these are separate issues, sometimes, they go hand in hand. Non of us here is judging the developing countries, we´re simply trying to understand, why is it so common there.

You wrote:
If you've lived in these cultures you'd know they don´t even have a word for pet never mind animal welfare.
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And we are asking - Why is it? What needs to change so people will become more compassionate towards animals and realize, that making them suffer is bad?

Animal welfare needs to be improved, worldwide. A lot of issues need to be improved worldwide. Take the abuse of women by their husbands or families - that´s going on everywhere in the world and we all know that there must be something done about it. And we all know that abuse of women is more common and tolerated in some countries. That´s the fact. And we must try to explain, educate, enforce laws... It may be a part of their culture but that doesn´t make it OK. It still must be changed, and rather sooner then later.

Culture is one thing, cruelty is another. Every culture can live without cruelty. Changing these things isn´t about attacking these cultures, it´s about improving them.
 
Stefka's post was far better written than my own. One point I can add is that I don't think that we should get caught up in political correctness by allowing people to use the "it's my culture" as an easy excuse.

Culture is dynamic, it's fluid, it's always changing and adapting to the moral zeitgeist. Was it not normal for us to catch lizards or budgies to keep as pets when we were kids? Was it not ok to kill a crocodile or a snake if we felt threatened or even for the fun of it? But times have changed through education, laws, and enforcement of said laws, thereby changing the culture.

We probably need local superstars to jump on the conservation bandwagon though. Just yesterday I read an article about a form of music in Indonesia that was extremely popular (called dangdut). Maybe if we get Julia Perez to campaign against animal cruelty and wildlife markets, then Indonesian's mentality will change. BBC News - Raunchy dangdut music stirs debate in Indonesia
 
In Bolivia I hoped to visit one of the large markets in Santa Cruz (bird species list example: http://www.partnersinflight.org/pub...pif09_anthropogenic impacts/herrera_pif09.pdf) just to see what happens, and how open things are. We didn't manage to get to a bird market in the end.

I've visited several smaller animal markets in Egypt, as well as the animal section of Alexandria's Friday market. The species on show were as expected; mostly endemic, inappropriate pets and kept in poor conditions. I find pet shops also give a good idea of what people tend to buy too. I've been monitoring the number of Egyptian tortoises on sale in Alexandrian pet shops for several years, and (fortunately?) they're now much less readily available than they used to be.
 
khakibob said:
"You can see the suffering in their face."
Add this to a host of other anthropomorphic spin & my thoughts are its more about animal liberation than conservation.

If you've lived in these cultures you'd know they dont even have a word for pet never mind animal welfare.How does that give you a better platform to judge from?I would have thought from your experience you would encourage education & alternatives,rather than unachievable enforcement/prohibition.

The way to achieve conservation is to make the wildlife valuable to those who directly engage & share landscape with it.Value does not have to be monetary.

Cheers Khakibob
Click to expand...
what on earth are you talking about? Of course there is a word for pet animals in Indonesia, and in Malaysia (more-or-less the same language), and in Thailand. And frankly you can see suffering in animals' faces. Anthropomorphism would be saying that the animal is begging you to release it, but it doesn't take that to see when an animal is in pain or tormented.

I agree with your last sentence ("The way to achieve conservation is to make the wildlife valuable to those who directly engage & share landscape with it.Value does not have to be monetary.") but the pet markets have no more to do conservation than pet shops in Australia or the UK, they are about people making money and other people wanting to own cute animals.
 
Chlidonias said:
with pressure the illegal side of it just moves out of the public eye. You can visit Bangkok's Chatuchak Weekend Market, for instance, and see nothing on view but puppies and baby squirrels...but they get raided regularly by wildlife officials and there is always a tonne of illegal and endangered stuff being seized.

I really wanted to visit the bird market in Jakarta as it is renowned for its scope and illegality, but I ran out of time.
Click to expand...

Enforcement at the immense Chatuchak has only picked up in recent years. Several years back, a visit to the animals section was like walking through a menagerie. Reptiles of all kinds, tarantulas and scorpions, birds like parrots and hornbills and small mammals (mostly squirrels). Many endangered species displayed openly.

The wildlife markets of China are far worse. The exotics aren't even meant as pets, they're food! Pangolins, hog badgers, giant flying squirrels, civets, wild cats, primates, all for human consumption.
 
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