Have You Met People Who Disliked or Opposed Zoos?

Jurek7 said:
I discovered the same.

I tried to interest several anti-zoo activists and vegetarians in protection of animals in the wild. They were not interested any more than an average person. That one 'pities' a 'sad' elephant in a zoo does not mean he has much interest in helping 1000 of elephants which are being killed by poachers.

Vegetarians and vegans I know were also not much interested in other uses of domestic animals, for example leather shoes or clothes. I felt that vegetarianism is a type of mild eating disorder and a result of a mild nervous trauma, more than the result of especially deep compassion or care about animals.

Anti-zoo people generally don't know much about zoos or animals, and project their own feelings or thoughts on animals. I avoid talking to such people about instincts or population management, unless I think they already met these topics. It was best to talk to them in terms of what they know about animals.

One thing which worked well is explaining that wild animals are similar to domestic animals, because even laymen generally know dogs, horses or chicken and their behavior and intelligence.

You can say that a killer whale is much like a big dog, an elephant is much like a horse, an eagle is much like a pigeon, that is they are completely happy with good food, water, some company and some space to move around, but have no dreams of abstract freedom etc. And a wild animal is certainly not happy to roam huge territory looking for food and water. Completely opposite to human hikers. Not that there is anything wrong with it.
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I'm genuinely asking - are you that kind of person commenting with pictures of bacon under vegan-themed posts? Also, I am not sure if you understand the difference between vegetarianism and veganism.
Though, thinking that someone who just refuses to eat meat (and other animal products) for whatever reason must be mentally ill is extremely short-sighted. Why should be a meat-eater more sane than a vegetarian? Because he does not care?
Most vegetarians and vegans do care about leather, but choosing between natural leather boots or synthetic ones is usually not that easy. In this case, natural leather is more sustainable than synthetic leather and thus people need to decide if they care more about the environment or the animals being killed for human consumption.
 
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Do people with alpha-gal syndrome have a "mild eating disorder" imposed by ticks, then? i will be sure to call the press- the first vectorborne mental health condition! this will shake the world of psychiatry, nutrition, and epidemiology. truly groundbreaking.

(the above is sarcastic if it is not clear.)

I think quite a few of the traits being applied to anti-zoos here are also blights within the pro-zoo community. We'd be throwing stones from a glass house if we said anti-zoos are lesser because they project their emotions onto animals/anthropomorphize animals. Who among us has not searched for emotion within an animal that, let's be frank, probably isn't feeling it?

Jurek7 said:
One thing which worked well is explaining that wild animals are similar to domestic animals, because even laymen generally know dogs, horses or chicken and their behavior and intelligence.

You can say that a killer whale is much like a big dog, an elephant is much like a horse, an eagle is much like a pigeon, that is they are completely happy with good food, water, some company and some space to move around, but have no dreams of abstract freedom etc. And a wild animal is certainly not happy to roam huge territory looking for food and water. Completely opposite to human hikers. Not that there is anything wrong with it.
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This is an absurd point IMO. The care necessitated to give my dog a happy life vs an orca a happy life are worlds apart. And not just because my dog doesn't live in the ocean- because one has been domesticated through many thousands of years, and one is an actively undomesticated animal. My dog, and most dogs I've met, are perfectly content with a domestic life. They may still have some "natural" drives (prey drive etc) but I would confidently say that even the most intrinsic drive-motivated dogs are mostly operating on domesticated urges. A dog does not naturally want to herd, we've bred that into them. We have not done the same with orcas. Same with pigeons vs eagles (pigeons have been domesticated for 2-5k years) and elephants vs horses (horses have been domesticated for 3.5-4k years).

All of this disregards the fact that an ethical zoo should not be treating their animals like domestic creatures. Training is necessary but that is not domestication. Treating animals like pets is treating them like domestic animals- cuddling with baby tigers, riding elephants, prodding bears to perform tricks- and that is not ethical for a zoo to do. These things actively harm the welfare of an animal.


if two of your big arguments for why people should not be anti-zoo are "vegans are a bunch of neurotic lily-livered slacktivists" and "a killer whale and a dog are alike", i don't think you're gonna make much traction lol
 
Aardwolf said:
I've known plenty of keepers who would happily see a world with no elephants or cetaceans in zoos (which we don't mention too often, because elephant keepers can be an intense, rowdy bunch... on zoo director I know who played devil's advocate with a group of them at a conference barely escaped with his life...).
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I seem to think most keepers (esp ones who work in zoos not housing elephants), and zoo aficionados, or at least visitors who sympathize with their benefits and how they operate, are completely chill with elephant keeping in AZA zoos as long as the habitat is roomy and enriching enough, has the appropiate management protocols and has proper natural groupings, and there are countless examples across the US and Western Europe. I know there's quite a mass of elephant-less zoos in the states that would be elated to bring back the animals with the best care possible and build a top tier facility for them. On the other hand, I feel most people that enjoy a good zoo visit and even most keepers tend to be mildly opposed to cetateans in captivity as they are free roaming ocean creatures that must move or drown and most aquariums can't afford or are just far too small for even dolphin keeping. In general it's sort of easier for zoos to keep elephants than dolphins and whales because the 1st mammals are terrestrial and there are oftentimes less hurdles for building large suitable enclosures for land animals than marine life.
 
There's one interesting fact re. the popularity of reputable zoos holding up today that just popped up in my mind, despite the current increasing debate about them: since I've started having more frequent zoo conversations with friends, fam and people i'm getting to know over the past 2 years, MANY people tend to zoos over circuses wildlife performing tricks (incl. elephants big cats and bears) for a plentifully obvious reasons. I'm definitely a bit anti animal circuses given bow they have had far more justifiable animal abuse allegations among John Q. Publics and activists. I feel a lot of circuses don't really place a strong emphasis on animal welfare standards conservation value, appropriate habitats veterinary care and enrichment programs the way modern zoos do. The cramped bleak living quarters circus animals are forced to live sickens most people including night-and-day vehicular travel which adds to the stress and the rise of human-only performances. One example of zoos being a palatable life for animals is that they genreally have a more stable life.
 
Yeah, while public opinion in the US and similar countries is split on the topic of zoos (although as pointed out earlier in this thread, very few people feel that strongly one way or the other), the general modern perception of animal circuses seems to be very overwhelmingly negative, and for good reason.
 
evilmonkey239 said:
Yeah, while public opinion in the US and similar countries is split on the topic of zoos (although as pointed out earlier in this thread, very few people feel that strongly one way or the other), the general modern perception of animal circuses seems to be very overwhelmingly negative, and for good reason.
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Yeah I would not be surprised if any Zoochatter opposed wildlife circuses. I think they're working their way to being banned now including the elephant acts.
 
The Horse Boy said:
Yeah I would not be surprised if any Zoochatter opposed wildlife circuses. I think they're working their way to being banned now including the elephant acts.
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I'd bet most of us here are against circuses because they are not really conservation-oriented and have a much more anthropocentric (and amusement-oriented) approach to wildlife and the animals, while well fed and cared, may develop stressful responses to being moved around constantly and having usually limited space, or we may be against them because, while we talk and inform ourselves on lots of animal matters, most of us are not experienced in any professional or not management of fauna outside zoological establishments; despite this they're still recognised as cultural and artistic displays in parts of Europe, so it'll be a while before they totally disappear, and some animals may never leave circus stages, such as dogs, parrots and horses.
 
Mickey said:
I'd bet most of us here are against circuses because they are not really conservation-oriented and have a much more anthropocentric (and amusement-oriented) approach to wildlife and the animals, while well fed and cared, may develop stressful responses to being moved around constantly and having usually limited space, or we may be against them because, while we talk and inform ourselves on lots of animal matters, most of us are not experienced in any professional or not management of fauna outside zoological establishments; despite this they're still recognised as cultural and artistic displays in parts of Europe, so it'll be a while before they totally disappear, and some animals may never leave circus stages, such as dogs, parrots and horses.
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I'm not even sure circuses use specialized enrichment programs on the same vein zoos.
 
The movie Dumbo definitely highlights how abusive circuses can be with elephants with that iconic cruel scene when the ringmaster and his crew separate dumbo from his mom by locking her up in a wagon when the reason she flew into a rage and attacked the visitors was only to protect him from bullying him. One of the reasons that movie tends to leave bad tastes in viewers mouths.
 
NNM. said:
Just the typical “zoos exist purely for our entertainment/zoos don’t care about their animals” stuff. She compared them to horse races, which are two extremely different things, including morally.
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Wow, her sentiment is prettt obsolete and irksome given how modern zoos have long moved past that purpose and that they indeed prioritize in animal care than visitor satisfaction.
 
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NNM. said:
In her defense, it's been a while since she's visited one and her last zoo visit was an unpleasant and unlucky one.
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Again these types of experiences often can factor into negative mentalities about these facilities. So I understand if her not frequentlt visting zoos and something along the lines of the sight of an old tiny bear grotto, pacing jaguar type thing has left a bad taste in her mouth. I am however getting the impression she doesn't quite understand the benefits of today's zoos and their conservation work.
 
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USZOOfan42 said:
I don't know if that is still fully true yet. Most of the zoos in the world prioritize for profit and or entertainment; mainly the non-AZA, non-EAZA, and a good amount of zoos outside of those regions.
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I'd agree with that. I think there are some bad zoos and bad collections across most countries and people are actually quite right to be opposed to those. A general defence of the principle of captivity might be one thing but universal defence of every zoo for just being a zoo is wrong, in my opinion. It's dangerous to animal welfare to dogmatically defend all zoos and indeed to call any criticism of them irksome or outdated - it allows bad zoos to carry on and the people who visit them to believe they are good places.
 
USZOOfan42 said:
I don't know if that is still fully true yet. Most of the zoos in the world prioritize for profit and or entertainment; mainly the non-AZA, non-EAZA, and a good amount of zoos outside of those regions.
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The American roadside zoos are such a notorious example that comes to mind
 
Which generation group would y'all think to be the most upset by or opposed to zoos?

I personally don't think sentiments liek that really correlate with any specific age demographic as I have met a small handful of various generations who think like that. But I often consider older adult generations around the boomer to x years to be more prone to anti zoo sentiments since they tend to have grown up around times before zoos fundamentally improved. I sometimes think millennials and zoomers are the most pro zoo.
 
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The Horse Boy said:
Which generation group would y'all think to be the most upset by or opposed to zoos?

I personally don't think sentiments liek that really correlate with any specific age demographic as I have met a small handful of various generations who think like that. But I often consider older adult generations around the boomer to x years to be more prone to anti zoo sentiments since they tend to have grown up around times before zoos fundamentally improved. I sometimes think millennials and zoomers are the most pro zoo.
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Yeah I also agree with older gens (maybe also those who probably watched Blackfish and/or Tiger King will also be my guess for I'm sure there's a minority). So here is also my story, so I had a CINEMA instructor who definitely was against animal cruelty. One of the clips we watched was the old fashioned zoos where people got to taunt/torment lions kept in those prison-bar like cages, and non-related to zoos expressed her displeasure of animal cruelty as mentioned (as supposedly it was often used in early cinema, example rooster fights). When I answered her question on my career I want to pursue (zookeeper) she straight out told me she thinks of zoos as glorified concentration camps (pretty pissed and f*cked up but I let it go since she is German). What's beyond hypocritical is that she has a cockatoo who probably lives in those typical parrot cages! At the end of the day, she is just your typical animal lover who I wouldn't be surprised supported animal rights, still I think its f*cked up to compare especially modern accredited or good zoos to horrific and tragic human events! She either has been living under a rock and thinks zoos as those with those barred cages or is aware and just hates the concepts.
 
Every now and then, either among distant friends or when meeting strangers e.g. on birthdays or partys, I hear some strange statements about zoos. However, I know very few people who are truly anti-zoo. Most have one or two points of criticism, some of which are justified, and are by no means completely opposed to the concept. I do think that zoos need to address some of the criticism. Which many (German) zoos already do.

When I hear such statements or criticisms, I try to briefly explain my point of view and then, if desired and possible, refute any misinformation, answer questions, and clear up misunderstandings.

A big topic among zoo visitors this year was the killing of zoo animals and feeding them to predators. This became quite a hot topic due to the media coverage of the killing of baboons in Nuremberg. However, I must say that after extensive discussions with these zoo visitors, there was a real understanding that breed & feed is a concept used by many zoos.

Personally, I believe that criticism of zoos on the internet is simply the loudest and that most "Online-Rambos" are not so vocal in real life. If confronted in real life most people do not know what to say on this topic or their arguments are quite easily disproved.
 
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