Homosexuality In zoos

[Hix]

Why should it get a special place in the public limelight, when there are so many interesting things in the animal kingdom, such as autofellatio, bisexuality, cannibal sex, coercive sex, necrophilia, pedophilia and various kinky sexual fetishes to talk about? Why to prefer queer animals, if so to speak?

You forgot incest. Happens in virtually every zoo and animal park. Often actually arranged by the zoo.



Hix

 

[Sun Wukong]

@Hix: Nah, I didn't forget. I just thought that white tigers are already presenting that aspect well enough...

@Maguari: Just "behaviour", and not "nature"? You're sure that being white in a black ghetto won't cause any direct harm? If I were you, I wouldn't try that out-and keep it as read that it might.
As for the off-topic: hey, didn't you mention MLK, racism etc. first?

@Zooplantman: regarding "I suspect we are projecting human sexual politics on the widdle bitty penguins." I second that.

 

[Maguari]

@Maguari: Just "behaviour", and not "nature"? You're sure that being white in a black ghetto won't cause any direct harm? If I were you, I wouldn't try that out-and keep it as read that it might.
As for the off-topic: hey, didn't you mention MLK, racism etc. first?

Regarding the off-topic, yes, I take my share of the blame and never denied that. But I only brought it in as an analogy to the main point, not to be debated in and of itself.

You're sure that being white in a black ghetto won't cause any direct harm?

If any direct harm came of that, it's because of racism on someone's part, not of being white or being black.

I suggest we end the debate here because it's a) getting into semantics in the way Internet debates often do and b) as agreed, off-topic.

 

[Sun Wukong]

@Maguari: If you don't want anything to be debated, then don't bring it up. As for the second quote: somehow, I doubt that.

Anyway, let's go back to topic.

 

[Mr.Focal]

The trouble with animals as examples in breeding is that both homosexuality and promiscuity as a survival factor have been reported. If you wanted to enter a religious debate you would want to show that these are two different phenomena.

 

[kiang]

I have a question regarding so-called gay animals, do these animals, that have been studied, like the penguins, blue ducks and flamingo's actually have sex (as we know it, i.e intercourse), or is it simply bonding?

 

[foz]

I have a question regarding so-called gay animals, do these animals, that have been studied, like the penguins, blue ducks and flamingo's actually have sex (as we know it, i.e intercourse), or is it simply bonding?

Just to make it clear, if they did not have sex would not make them non-homosexual, many gay men bond with other men and yet to not engage in gay sex. however that does not answer your question

 

[Zooplantman]

Just to make it clear, if they did not have sex would not make them non-homosexual, many gay men bond with other men and yet to not engage in gay sex. however that does not answer your question

Yes, but it gets us back to the pivotal question about what exactly is homosexuality in animals, is it akin to human homosexuality or something else? Can we even know? If two males "bond" whether human or other animal, is that homosexuality or bonding?

You can't very well teach at the zoo what you don't understand (well, except to teach "these ducks behave this way and we'll be damned if we know what they're up to" - which would be a GREAT sign!)

So does anyone here have a behaviorist's definition of homosexuality in non-humans?

 

[Mr.Focal]

It is usually taken to mean attempted sex, mounting, humping, that sort of thing. However, those behaviors can also be manifestations of aggression, establishing dominance, that sort of thing.

 

[Shirokuma]

Fire bellied toads always try to mate with other males, they can't tell the difference... I think it is more interesting in animals such as certain birds which form pair bonds.

I guess we can never know for sure and should avoid being anthropormorphic but I do think it is worth including signs and information of the sort mentioned earlier.

 

[Mr.Focal]

You make some good points: while looking for analogies we should avoid anthropormorphsizing, and we should understand recognition (and presentation).

Some fMRI studies of humans have shown similar reactions between womenwholikemen and menwholikemen and vice versa. I doubt if such studies could be repeated with animals.

 

[docend24]

Not always the case, of course - the incredible story of Ota Benga, the Mbuti pygmy who was once kept in the Bronx Zoo monkey house, is one of the most fascinating zoo episodes of the C20th...

I kind of waiting till someone is gonna suggest US zoos should promote melanistic animals during Black history month being dead serious. This thread is a joke.

 

[docend24]

Fire bellied toads always try to mate with other males, they can't tell the difference... I think it is more interesting in animals such as certain birds which form pair bonds.

I guess we can never know for sure and should avoid being anthropormorphic but I do think it is worth including signs and information of the sort mentioned earlier.

Yes and they are protesting activist if such a bird is exchanged with another zoo for a specimen of opposite sex to help create a breeding situation. It's especially dumb when it is endangered species.

 

[foz]

I kind of waiting till someone is gonna suggest US zoos should promote melanistic animals during Black history month being dead serious. This thread is a joke.

Im sorry I think you have completley missed the point. Same sex animal behaviour is a credible and relevant behaviour. No one is aksing zoos to promote homosexuality or even equality but merely to acknowledge its existance as it does with other forms of animal behaviour.

@ Zooplantman I take your point, no one can really define homosexuality and I regret my post as I have fallen into the trap of anthropomorphising the sam sex behaviour seen in zoos. However I still beleive that zoos should acknowledge 'homosexual' behaviour (whatever it is).

 

[Zooplantman]

@ Zooplantman I take your point, no one can really define homosexuality and I regret my post as I have fallen into the trap of anthropomorphising the sam sex behaviour seen in zoos. However I still beleive that zoos should acknowledge 'homosexual' behaviour (whatever it is).

I think there is far too much anthropomorphic nonsense about animal behaviors. We rarely know "why" animals do what they do... only that we observe this or that ("The male lion wants only his off spring to survive and so sends the female's other cubs to the work-house to toil with Oliver Twist....")
Our science education would be much improved by declaring less and asking more questions.

So for a zoo to point out that that "pair" of ducks is a pair of males such as has been observed often in a number of species, and to invite the visitor to join in observing makes far more sense to me (people will draw all sorts of conclusions and the attentive eavesdropper will learn more about humans there then about ducks). I'd rather encourage visitors to "do" science" then spin animal behavior to make cultural or political points.

 

[foz]

I think there is far too much anthropomorphic nonsense about animal behaviors. We rarely know "why" animals do what they do... only that we observe this or that ("The male lion wants only his off spring to survive and so sends the female's other cubs to the work-house to toil with Oliver Twist....")
Our science education would be much improved by declaring less and asking more questions.

So for a zoo to point out that that "pair" of ducks is a pair of males such as has been observed often in a number of species, and to invite the visitor to join in observing makes far more sense to me (people will draw all sorts of conclusions and the attentive eavesdropper will learn more about humans there then about ducks). I'd rather encourage visitors to "do" science" then spin animal behavior to make cultural or political points.

I agree. Sometimes anthromorphism is a techniques used by zoos etc to inspire and educate (e.g. the use of 'media disney animals etc) (not saying that i necessarily agree). Homosexuality (same sex pairing) still remains unclear and the whole subject would make an interetsing and innovative display for a zoo.

Please tell me if ive got this wrong

 

[Zooplantman]

I agree. Sometimes anthromorphism is a techniques used by zoos etc to inspire and educate (e.g. the use of 'media disney animals etc) (not saying that i necessarily agree). Homosexuality (same sex pairing) still remains unclear and the whole subject would make an interetsing and innovative display for a zoo.

Please tell me if ive got this wrong

All I can say is that anything that gets visitors to look more attentively at the animals, to ask themselves questions and discuss what they are seeing with those around them is a positive step.

 

[foz]

Back to the zoos! (whilst I am inclined to agree with Shirokuma)

I still elive that animals same-sex behaviour should be acknowledged by zoos the same as any other behaviour or natural phenomena

 

[Baldur]

This gay talk is likely to continue for weeks to come; I have long since lost interest in it, I guess it happened when phedofily were first brought up and somehow connected to normal people's interest in their own gender. It showed me that this discussion was not going the way the thread starter (presumably) wanted it to go.

For those who just won't get enough of discussing this subject and would be happy to do so until a moderator closes the thread (not that I'm wishing it to happen, but it is usually the only way to stop illogical discussions-turned-childish-arguments around here) I'm pleased to inform you that Sun Wukong has started a whole new thread in order to 'explain' what he meant in the earlier one.

http://www.zoochat.com/25/homosexuality-201877/

Considering the enormous interest in the earlier thread, I'm sure that many of you will be delighted to be able to discuss this in two threads at the same time.

And yes, I'm being sarcastic.

 

[Sun Wukong]

And I still believe @foz that this subject has become way too overstated and anthropomorphised (as correctly pointed out by @Zooplantman) even in the teacup-sized limits of this threat, and that the discussion around it has already drifted away. That's why I posted the other threat in the Zoo Cafe area. Use it, if you want.

And no @Baldur, no "explaination" from my side to be found-just a (hopefully final) statement...