Howletts Wild Animal Park Howletts Barbary Lions

11jadaway

Well-Known Member
Last time I went to Howletts Wild Animal Park I was expecting no Barbary Lions. The website stated that Port Lympne was the only one with them.
When I arrived I was surprised to see two female lions in the old tiger enclosure!
When I got back home I looked at the website to see no info on this!
Barbary Lions are extinct in the wild and also the biggest species of lion.To see them in Howletts was epic as it was a complete surprise to me that they were there!
Also Javan Gibbons, Indian (Bengal) Tigers and Ring Tailed Lemurs were not mentioned on the website.
When you go there expect the unexpected!
 
The pair you saw aren't two females. ;) They're a brother-sister pairing. The male is castrated he has no mane. Hence the reason you thought he was a female.

'Jabir' and 'Layla' are half brother and sister they have the same father 'Kabir' from America (Washington?) but different mothers.
 
I wouldnt be so certain they're barbary lions either. Genetic testing either hasn't been done or has been done but the zoo are being very tight lipped about the results. If they were true barbary, i find it astouding that they would so willingly castrate or prevent breeding in their pride - there would hypothetically be so few pure barbary in existence that they would be on the IUCN's red list and worthy of intensive breeding programmes.

In all probability, they're standard african. Genetic testing can be done easily and cheaply these days (im in a related profession) and if there was any serious suspiscion they were remants of the barbary subspecie, they'd have gone ahead and done it already.
 
I wouldnt be so certain they're barbary lions either. Genetic testing either hasn't been done or has been done but the zoo are being very tight lipped about the results. If they were true barbary, i find it astouding that they would so willingly castrate or prevent breeding in their pride - there would hypothetically be so few pure barbary in existence that they would be on the IUCN's red list and worthy of intensive breeding programmes.

In all probability, they're standard african. Genetic testing can be done easily and cheaply these days (im in a related profession) and if there was any serious suspiscion they were remants of the barbary subspecie, they'd have gone ahead and done it already.

Same can be said for the "Bengal" tigers - there aren't any outside of India, due to hybridisation having been a severe problem in the past.
 
It's easy to make the assumption they are both female, i made the same mistake in the main thread!
 
Same can be said for the "Bengal" tigers - there aren't any outside of India, due to hybridisation having been a severe problem in the past.

Sorry to piggyback on this thread but,

Are tigers routinely tested to if they are indeed a pure subspeices or do most collections not just incase they have hybrids but still want to produce cute tiger cubs for the public?
 
In all probability, they're standard african. Genetic testing can be done easily and cheaply these days (im in a related profession) and if there was any serious suspiscion they were remants of the barbary subspecie, they'd have gone ahead and done it already.

There is a video clip somewhere on here talking about the new female 'Barbary' that arrived at Port Lympne from Madrid a few months ago/last year. On that there is a very brief mention of genetic testing having been done and proving these Lions contain Barbary genes. This seems to be contradictory to all scientific reports I have read that indicate DNA tests reveal no Barbary ancestry in the Lions tested (including a couple from PL).

I think Howletts/PL may perpetuate this aspect/myth to justify keeping them. In reality they may be rather stuck with them now. Breeding has been curtailed as two of their three males are now castrated. Future breeding wil be only from the single pair at Port Lympne. Doubtless when they do produce a litter there will be more press releases about 'rare Lions born in Kent' etc.and data resurrected about how they are extinct in the wild etc, which may act as a draw for visitors.

I am not sure whether they genuinely believe their own publicity about these Lions or not though. :confused:
 
Sorry to piggyback on this thread but,

Are tigers routinely tested to if they are indeed a pure subspeices or do most collections not just incase they have hybrids but still want to produce cute tiger cubs for the public?

Not sure, but all purebred Tigers are listed in EEP studbook registers. Tigers not included in these are deemed hybrids. So Zoos know if they have hybrids or not, depending on their registration or lack of. Of course that doesn't preclude missalliances and the odd suspect animal's inclusion in a studbook, as has happened more than once.
 
Not sure, but all purebred Tigers are listed in EEP studbook registers. Tigers not included in these are deemed hybrids. So Zoos know if they have hybrids or not, depending on their registration or lack of. Of course that doesn't preclude missalliances and the odd suspect animal's inclusion in a studbook, as has happened more than once.

It also does not prevent zoos from using "Bengal Tiger" as a generic term for tigers, even though the last purebred one I know of was at Bristol Zoo in the late 80s! A related problem is that of zoos advertising white tigers as a seperate species.
 
Sorry to piggyback on this thread but,

Are tigers routinely tested to if they are indeed a pure subspeices or do most collections not just incase they have hybrids but still want to produce cute tiger cubs for the public?

There are many instances of zoos 'going into' a tiger subspecies or publicising their breeding success for many years before (I assme) mitichondrial DNA analysis in recent years has identified individuals previously thought to be 'pure' as hybrids:

- At Paignton, the first pair of 'Sumatran' tigers to be housed in the current enclosure turned out to be hybrids - were these the ones that ended up at Shrepreth?

- Thrigby Wildlife Gardens began keeping 'Sumatran' tigers in the late 1980s, and had a lot of breeding success until it was realised they were producing hybrids. I believe two of those cubs produced are the two animals at the Welsh Mountain Zoo, which had joined the EEP for this species so I'm guessing had acquired the tigers thinking they were pure Sumatrans.

- Colchester made breeding attempts with its female Amur tiger before realising she was not pure Amur. From other posts on here, it would appear some testing (or even just tracing of ancestry) was done on some of the EEP population of Amurs and it was found some have Sumatran blood. That said, look in the gallery for a recent photo of the 'Amur' tigers at Knowsley, they phenotypically have traits of Sumatrans so I would say it is also possible to judge visually most of the time.

However, when a (sub)-species gets so rare, it seems (rightly so in my view) not to matter - take the case of Amur leopards, which have some North Chinese genes in the captive population. 'Purest' individuals are prioritised, but not managed as a separate population because it is so small. I wonder if 'Barbary' lions are the same.

There is a part of me that thinks a selective breeding effort over many generations in termperate zoos might produce hardy, large (from the existing genes, this is one trait much lauded as proof they are different from othe African sub-species) lions which could one day do well as a distinct population in the Atlas Mountains. Should political consensus in original 'Barabary' range countries (provided NATO is not funding militants to de-stabilise the area and create chaos, just saying) one day be that a large predator reintroduction would be beneficial to the ecology of the mountain ranges, then it would be a great use of the current, slightly perplexing relationship that zoos seem to have with this animal. However I completely agree that zoos need to be straight with their public and stop trying to tell them that donkeys are unicons.
 
- Thrigby Wildlife Gardens began keeping 'Sumatran' tigers in the late 1980s, and had a lot of breeding success until it was realised they were producing hybrids. I believe two of those cubs produced are the two animals at the Welsh Mountain Zoo, which had joined the EEP for this species so I'm guessing had acquired the tigers thinking they were pure Sumatrans.


Interestingly, I seem to recall that the contamination in these individuals is due to Malayan genes, rather than the more usual Amur genes - but I wouldn't take this as read.
 
The Colchester female referred to was born at Linton, whose pair had several litters before it was discovered their male was not pure Amur. I seem to remember this only came to light when one of his siblings was tested for the EEP in a german zoo!
I know one of the offspring from linton went to colchester before the current one, but she die within a year , while another female remains at linton with the father, but they must have sent others away to breed elsewhere. I have often wondered whether these have bred & produced more impure cubs?
 
then it would be a great use of the current, slightly perplexing relationship that zoos seem to have with this animal. However I completely agree that zoos need to be straight with their public and stop trying to tell them that donkeys are unicons.

Agree that if the 'real' Barbary is extinct even among zoo lions, then a 'pseudo Barbary', even if created completely by Zoos, could still fill their niche if there are any suitable areas for these Lions to still inhabit. I agree too that zoos and so-called Barbary Lions do seem to have a rather confused relationship which seems to go in cycles- 'in favour' 'out of favour' etc. Such a project might give more focus and definite aim to perpetuating them, even if they are only 'mock' Barbaries.
 
There are many instances of zoos 'going into' a tiger subspecies or publicising their breeding success for many years before (I assme) mitichondrial DNA analysis in recent years has identified individuals previously thought to be 'pure' as hybrids:

- At Paignton, the first pair of 'Sumatran' tigers to be housed in the current enclosure turned out to be hybrids - were these the ones that ended up at Shrepreth?

- Thrigby Wildlife Gardens began keeping 'Sumatran' tigers in the late 1980s, and had a lot of breeding success until it was realised they were producing hybrids. I believe two of those cubs produced are the two animals at the Welsh Mountain Zoo, which had joined the EEP for this species so I'm guessing had acquired the tigers thinking they were pure Sumatrans.

- Colchester made breeding attempts with its female Amur tiger before realising she was not pure Amur. From other posts on here, it would appear some testing (or even just tracing of ancestry) was done on some of the EEP population of Amurs and it was found some have Sumatran blood. That said, look in the gallery for a recent photo of the 'Amur' tigers at Knowsley, they phenotypically have traits of Sumatrans so I would say it is also possible to judge visually most of the time.

The former Paignton individuals went to Drayton Manor (and as of 2011 were still there)

Sherpeth have a pair of related Bengal hybrids (one White and one tradtional orange)

Thrigby bred Sumatran's well until it was discovered that an individual they had imported from Kuala Lumpar was not pure... as you say the sibling pair at Welsh Mountain originated from there (female since died of natural causes but they still have her brother) along with the former Paignton brothers (now at DM) and probably others elsewhere in Europe....


The only pure Sumatran that Thrigby now have is a female who they took from Dublin in 2005
 
Shepreths pair of tigers Amba and Rana came from Paradise Wildlife Park where they were reared with a collection of other tiger and lion cubs. And both are of an orange colour. These animals are of circus blood, so incredibly unlikely that they are of pure descent.

Hamerton, nearby have a male white and a female orange 'Bengal tiger'.

And also, my view that PL Lions are of proper Barbary descent is quite unlikely, if they were, then why would Kabir have been sent to Longleat to breed with their pride? Creating 'hybrid' lions as it were.

However my view on hybrids (generally tigers) is also a bit different, I think it's hard to be so precious about it, when we are running out of individuals all together.
 
The Colchester female referred to was born at Linton, whose pair had several litters before it was discovered their male was not pure Amur. I seem to remember this only came to light when one of his siblings was tested for the EEP in a german zoo!

Has it become a requirement to genetically test all tigers or is it still down to individual zoos participating in EEPs to do so? It seems such a wasted effort in one way, all because breeding animals weren't tested before having cubs.

The only pure Sumatran that Thrigby now have is a female who they took from Dublin in 2005

Do you know anything about this animal? I can't remember ISIS showing more than one Sumatran at Thrigby for many years. I'm surprised she would have been sent to join a hybrid male unless genetically over-represented or unable to breed.

However my view on hybrids (generally tigers) is also a bit different, I think it's hard to be so precious about it, when we are running out of individuals all together.

I think in captivity it really doesn't matter to me if a tiger is 'generic', as long as it is able to play an effective conservation (fund-raising) and educational role. I'm thinking particularly of the Isle of Wight Zoo, I love what that place has become. However, in situ I think its down to what the range countries want ultimately. I'd imagine a small but well-managed pool of Sumatran tigers might more desirable to Indonesia in a few decades if the wild population becomes extinct, rather than some generic animals. I wonder what officials and wildlife managers in India think of the hybrid tigers already in at least one reserve.

As for lions, noone really questions the recent exhibit at Whipsnade, or the continued breeding at safari parks. I rarely hear anyone on here complaining that safari parks should switch to Indian lions, so I think there's enough of a general acceptance of generic African lions to warrant a small group of dedicated zoos pursuing the selective breeding of modern-day altas (barbary) analogues, should this one day become useful to the range countries in North Africa. I do wonder, though, if there is really ever is political will to reintroduce an extinct large carnivore (the UK has no leg to stand on in this respect), I'm sure translocated pure sub-saharan lions would be the easiest option and more likely.

Given that a number of well-respected zoos are subscribing to the legend of the barbary lion, its a real shame they don't actually try and exhibit them in any way that makes them appear distinct from regular 'African' lions. I would be excited to see them alongside red deer, barbary macaques, and barbary sheep, even Syrian brown bears, at least the context would be to show a range of species which represent closely those that used to inhabit the Atlas mountains.
 
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Do you know anything about this animal? I can't remember ISIS showing more than one Sumatran at Thrigby for many years. I'm surprised she would have been sent to join a hybrid male unless genetically over-represented or unable to breed.

Her name is Dua and she was born at Dublin in March 2004. EEP has never been keen to breed from any of that line... so she's been placed none breeding there for the forseeable future. Perfectly good reproductive system as far as I'm aware and it's not a purity issue because two closely related females (offspring of a full sibling of this animal) were exported to Japan during 2011 and are now in breeding situations over there so I'd think it's simply over-representation with EEP.....
 
And also, my view that PL Lions are of proper Barbary descent is quite unlikely, if they were, then why would Kabir have been sent to Longleat to breed with their pride? Creating 'hybrid' lions as it were.

I think they only claim they have Barbary genes, rather than being 'pure' though they seem to send out mixed messages about this. So sending a male to breed with other Lions elsewhere may have seemed perfectly logical- however I suspect it was more a case of they were happy to see him move elsewhere and his purity or otherwise wasn't an issue.
 
Agree that if the 'real' Barbary is extinct even among zoo lions, then a 'pseudo Barbary', even if created completely by Zoos, could still fill their niche if there are any suitable areas for these Lions to still inhabit. I agree too that zoos and so-called Barbary Lions do seem to have a rather confused relationship which seems to go in cycles- 'in favour' 'out of favour' etc. Such a project might give more focus and definite aim to perpetuating them, even if they are only 'mock' Barbaries.

Not a fan of the whole 'mock Barbary' idea perpetuated by Howletts/PL. Has as much validity as white tigers/lions in captivity. In creating an animal that has a similar phenotype to the original does have merits - but only when the originals are completely gone. For this I see the benefit of creating/perpetuating the Heck cattle breed and using them to manage woodland etc in Europe, as there are no Aurochs left to do the same job. Going back to the Barbary lion, there is no need to 're-create' an animal to fit the large predator role in North Africa as we still have a close genetic match. Asiatic lions are pretty much (or even exactly) the same thing as Barbarys, just found a little further east. And they could do with some new protected habitats outside Gir forest. And there are plenty in captivity. Just need to find a suitable protected area in the Atlas that requires predators...
 
Not a fan of the whole 'mock Barbary' idea perpetuated by Howletts/PL.

the Barbary lion, there is no need to 're-create' an animal to fit the large predator role in North Africa as we still have a close genetic match. Asiatic lions are pretty much (or even exactly) the same thing as Barbarys, just found a little further east.

To be fair, Howletts/PL is not the only place perpetuatig this myth- these Lions, or the uncastrated ones anyway, are afaik still part of a managed breeding programme involving several other zoos in Europe too. And there are other zoos which have participated in the past and have since dropped out.

Good point about the Asian Lion- certainly a very close relative, if not identical to Barbary (as it carries a different genetic Haplotype) then perhaps as close as the Siberian and Caspian tigers, which apparently represented populations of the same species which have experienced seperation in quite recent times.
 
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