HR 669 and what it means for US zoos.

groundskeeper24

Well-Known Member
15+ year member
On April 23rd the US Congress will hear HR 669 proposed by Rep. Madeline Bordallo of Guam. This bill will essentially ban trade and interstate commerce in all non-native wildlife. This includes all tropical fish and saltwater fish (you can still keep goldfish), birds other than ducks and chickens, all reptiles as well as small animals such as hamsters and guinea pigs. No cats though, although they are immensely damaging to native wildlife when the become feral. Don't want to anger millions of voting cat owners, right?

Anyhow, as a fish/reptile keeper I have issues with this bill. I think species should be regulated as well as importation, but this kind of broad, sweeping legislation is the wrong way. Animals that do damage in places like Florida and Hawaii wouldn't last past October in the North and Midwest, even in most parts of the South.

My question to people here is: What does this mean to the future of US zoos? Zoo animals are non-native. That's why we go to zoos. To see animals we can't see in the wild. Also, all breeding of non-native species will be banned with this legislation, so forget about establishing or maintaining captive popualtions. If this passes as is, zoos will be done in a couple of decades in the US. No imports plus no captive breeding equals no animals.

Also, many advances in husbandry have come from private owners. Just look at places like White Oak. There are also many reptile breeders (Frank Retes with varanids) and fish keepers that have made breakthroughs in husbandry through private keeping. Forget about that, too. If Zoos go down, then you know the private owners don't stand a chance. The impact of this is staggering. It effects not only zoos, but researchers, the hunting/fishing industry, the pet industry (which will be devastated), restaurants and raw materials (glass).
 
Seriously? That is just going to cause a nightmare. Surely conservational purposes will overrule this?

Really, really, really hope the UK doesnt follow this.
 
"This bill will essentially ban trade and interstate commerce in all non-native wildlife. This includes all tropical fish and saltwater fish (you can still keep goldfish), birds other than ducks and chickens, all reptiles as well as small animals such as hamsters and guinea pigs. No cats though, although they are immensely damaging to native wildlife when the become feral. Don't want to anger millions of voting cat owners, right?"

I have a friend in the US who is a snake breeder (New York), and if this bill goes through, well, she's out of a job :(

Also-does this bill (which is a bloody ridiculous one, pardon my language) ban dogs and dog breeding? They're non-native :p
 
This bill obviously wont affect zoos in anyway...well except maybe more paperwork.

How so? Will permits just be grandfathered in? I thought about that but wasn't sure. I still think the bill is waay too far reaching. I looked through the proposal and there really isn't a lot mentioning accredited institutions. Nothing explicit at all. As reputable organizations, most zoos should have no trouble getting the documentation they'd need for their current stock, but you'll be answering to the government in a major way on I'd guess an at least yearly basis. All of the records and births will be the government's business and they will help determine which programs go on and which don't. I'm not an anti-government type, but I'm not sure this is their place in society. They have more important things to do and zoos are better off deciding these things for themselves. They have accreditation systems in place already and are capable of policing themselves without Uncle Sam looking over their shoulder.
 
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here is the bill proposal
GovTrack: H.R. 669: Text of Legislation, Introduced in House
it is not at all affecting captive-animal-keeping the way it is made out in the initial post

Go nuts, man. I'm thick skinned enough to deal with it. It leaves the door open to further inclusion of species, but that will require more hearings and more money. It would be and endless process if every captively held species were to get it's day in court. I'm not sure I think they'd be so considerate about things. It's a bad idea.

If you want to ban ownership of giant constrictors, then do so. If you think people shouldn't own 7ft salvator monitors, then that's understandable. Heck, I'd even welcome more regulation of scumbag reptile importers. What I don't like is that the captive breeding of animals like tropical fish and even suitable pet herps will be done away with. You get to keep your current animals, and when they die that's it. To think that this is anything short of unprecedented in this country is wrong. It's way too much at once.

To say it isn't going to have a huge effect on captive animals just is not true.
 
The idea is to reduce the risk of introducing more invasive exotic species into US environments. Thus making it illegal for the next brown tree snake, snakehead fish, and mongoose to enter fragile ecosystems and displace native species. This has everything more to do with preserving native species than outlawing the keeping of various animals. There is plenty of room in the bill for public comment and allows for the current reptile industry to remain for "educational purpose" - which is already the politically correct phrase to use for these animals.

And if zoos are wanting to hold species that can be damaging to environments, the government should know the status of these animals. Imagine the billions of dollars and the damage to native flora and fauna some of these species can do. I know the state of Florida already has some statues setup for various damaging species - i.e. sea snakes.
 
Here is my editorial on the issue. Different states have different needs and concerns. I believe that this should remain a state-by-state issue. Things that could be dangerous to the ecosystem of Florida, would not establish in Idaho or Montana. A blanket outlawing of all exotics is an extreme case of the federal government overstepping their bounds. I understand the need for control of invasive exotics, but I don't think this is the solution. There is no need to punish the responsible for the sake of the unscrupulous.
 
Apologies, after reading it over again, it does appear that it is NOT a blanket ban on exotics, but rather setting up a system to create a list of approved and unapproved animals for importation into the United States? Is that how others see it?
 
that is exactly what it is. A list of approved and non-approved species is drawn up based on what is already in the country, also taking into account the biosecurity risk of certain species. Species can be added to the approved list if an application is made. The complaints made on this thread about a blanket ban on exotic fish and reptiles (for example), with all being outlawed and not allowed to be bred etc, are quite simply wrong. The proposal is very straight-forward, all you need to do is read it.
 
This bill obviously wont affect zoos in anyway...well except maybe more paperwork.

I don't see how it's that obvious? Clearly section 7 subsection a allows the Secretary of the Interior through USFW to issue permits for imports, but I can't find the language anywhere in HR 669 that would allow permits to be issued for breeding?

Sounds like that's a little gotcha that could affect zoos?
 
Apologies, after reading it over again, it does appear that it is NOT a blanket ban on exotics, but rather setting up a system to create a list of approved and unapproved animals for importation into the United States? Is that how others see it?

The guilty until proven innocent tactic of HR 669 is really where the problem lies with the "Approved List" vs. "Unapproved List" approach.

HR 669 gives an already understaffed and under funded US Fish and Wildlife service only 36 months to do a risk assessment (instead of the more commonly acceptable risk analysis typically done to evaluate potential invasive species) on each of the thousands upon thousands of non-native species that will fall under the umbrella of HR 669. If any of the evaluations of those species are not completed by the end of the 36 month time frame dictated by HR 669, those species will be by default considered "Unapproved" and banned from import, export, interstate transport, and breeding. Sadly, many of these species have been in the pet trade for 50 years without ever causing a problem to United States ecosystems.

The relationship between zoos and private captive breeders over the last 40 years has been extremely beneficial to both sides. Make no mistake, HR 669 is a overly broad piece of legislation that can be used to shut down the pet industry and put an end to the captive breeding of many if not all non-native species within the US.

An interesting thing to note for zoo keepers; there is absolutely no mention in HR 669 anywhere about permits being made available for the breeding of any species not on the approved list. You may be able to obtain a permit for importation, but if the species is either specifically "Unapproved" or just not yet on the "Approved" list ... it will be a violation of the Lacey Act to breed that species punishable by 5 years in federal prison and/or a $20,000.00 fine per incident ... not to mention the mandatory destruction of the breeding pair and all offspring.

When reviewing the text of HR 669, do you really want to ask yourself what's likely to happen, or do you want to think about what could happen if taken to the extreme? In the wrong hands, HR 669 can be turned into a nightmare for many Americans.

Stand up, Speak up, Do something .... NO HR 669

-adam
 
The guilty until proven innocent tactic of HR 669 is really where the problem lies with the "Approved List" vs. "Unapproved List" approach.

HR 669 gives an already understaffed and under funded US Fish and Wildlife service only 36 months to do a risk assessment (instead of the more commonly acceptable risk analysis typically done to evaluate potential invasive species) on each of the thousands upon thousands of non-native species that will fall under the umbrella of HR 669. If any of the evaluations of those species are not completed by the end of the 36 month time frame dictated by HR 669, those species will be by default considered "Unapproved" and banned from import, export, interstate transport, and breeding. Sadly, many of these species have been in the pet trade for 50 years without ever causing a problem to United States ecosystems.

The relationship between zoos and private captive breeders over the last 40 years has been extremely beneficial to both sides. Make no mistake, HR 669 is a overly broad piece of legislation that can be used to shut down the pet industry and put an end to the captive breeding of many if not all non-native species within the US.

An interesting thing to note for zoo keepers; there is absolutely no mention in HR 669 anywhere about permits being made available for the breeding of any species not on the approved list. You may be able to obtain a permit for importation, but if the species is either specifically "Unapproved" or just not yet on the "Approved" list ... it will be a violation of the Lacey Act to breed that species punishable by 5 years in federal prison and/or a $20,000.00 fine per incident ... not to mention the mandatory destruction of the breeding pair and all offspring.

When reviewing the text of HR 669, do you really want to ask yourself what's likely to happen, or do you want to think about what could happen if taken to the extreme? In the wrong hands, HR 669 can be turned into a nightmare for many Americans.

Stand up, Speak up, Do something .... NO HR 669

-adam

Thanks for the link adam!

I already sent a couple of emails to congress.
 
I am so confused as to how this will affect zoos. Last time I checked, zoos are whole lot different from keeping animals as pets.
 
I am so confused as to how this will affect zoos. Last time I checked, zoos are whole lot different from keeping animals as pets.

It's not legislation for just "pets" it's legislation for non-native wildlife. Most zoo animals are non-native. There is room for permits and specific cases to be decided by the federal government, but there is absolutely no guarantee that zoos will be given a free pass.

Congress needs a leaner form of this bill that actually addresses specific invasive species and not all exotics in a blanket piece of legislation. The ridiculous scale of this bill is like using an ICBM to catch a bank robber.

Why give the government power to control everything when they are only needed to control specific ones? This bill reeks of PETA and other environmental groups who have the goal of ending animal captivity in general.

Immediate impact of not, it's a slippery slope and a big blank check to the government.
 
Black Rhino: "It mentions nothing about zoos what so ever, so I wouldn't really worry about it."

Though zoos may not be mentioned, it doesn't mean that we should forget about this bill.

From my understanding on other posts, this bill (though intented to stop the next wave of alien exotics) has the potential to cripple the pet industry and make it impossible for zoos or other facilities to import and export new bloodlines to contiune or create new captive breeding populations.

All it takes is for some extremeist group to lobby to Washingtons' brilliant minds:rolleyes:, play on their emotions or ignorances, and before you know it the only wild (and dare I say domestic)animals we'll get see will be on TV or the internet.

I don't know about any of you, but I personally think ZooChat is a much more clever name than Watching Animals On The BoobTubeChat:D
 
I don't see how it's that obvious? Clearly section 7 subsection a allows the Secretary of the Interior through USFW to issue permits for imports, but I can't find the language anywhere in HR 669 that would allow permits to be issued for breeding?

SEC. 7. PERMITS.
(a) In General- The Secretary may issue a permit authorizing importation otherwise prohibited under section 6(a)(1), for scientific research, medical, accredited zoological or aquarium display purposes, or for educational purposes that are specifically reviewed, approved, and verified by the Secretary, if the Secretary finds that there has been a proper showing by the permittee of responsibility for the specimen and continued protection of the public interest and health with respect to the specimen.
(b) Terms and Conditions- The Secretary may include in a permit under subsection (a) terms and conditions to minimize the risk of introduction or establishment of the nonnative wildlife species in the United States.

This broad statement would provide for responsible husbandry and management.


It mentions nothing about zoos what so ever, so I wouldn't really worry about it.

Zoos are mentioned in the language of the bill in reference to the issuance of permits to display "unapproved" species.
 
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