But you guys better get used to using dangerous semi automatics and "assault weapons"
Hunting Endangered Animals In Texas
- Thread starter TropicWorld54
- Start date
yes, let us use Zoochat to organise a hunting party....
Are you offering.yes, let us use Zoochat to organise a hunting party....
I just think that a forum for zoo fans is not the place to try and organise a meet-up to kill animals for your own sick gratification. I don't have a problem per se with people hunting so long as it isn't endangering any species, but I don't understand the attraction in killing things, and really that is what hunting forums are for. Not what Zoochat is for.Are you offering.
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nanoboy
Well-Known Member
As BZF said, probably only spiders. Haha. I am not sure how I forgot about this thread. Weird.
Nah, I don't mind joining you guys to fire off a few rounds with tschandler's arsenal .. I mean collection
but no hunting for me thanks. I prefer to shoot animals (quite poorly) with my camera.Well Chil we are in an "off topic" part aren't we.
Everyone on this site is here because we love animals and are interested in conservation. You probably disagree with it but animal husbandry is part of my livelihood and I raise animals and I hunt. Doing these things doesn't make me a bad guy or a pariah.
Hunting and hunters are integral parts of conservation to deny that is foolish. I hunt because it maintains the balance of nature and its a good way to source fresh "local" meat.
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I don't qualify "off-topic" to include trying to organise meet-ups to kill animals for pleasure.tschandler71 said:
I don't disagree with animal husbandry at all (I'm not even sure why I should?). I have to kill animals myself from time to time, but killing due to necessity is not even close to killing for pleasure.tschandler71 said:
how did I know you would bring up "conservation"? There have been several threads on here about why someone would want to kill for pleasure and the fall-back argument is always "its for conservation!" as if they just can't say out loud that they simply enjoy killing things. Conservation can certainly include hunting, but the majority of hunters don't go out hunting because of "conservation", but they do use that as an excuse. I have to say that I do like your line there, "I hunt because it maintains the balance of nature". Nice one.tschandler71 said:
I enjoy hunting but there is more to hunting than just killing, there is no pleasure or honor in say canned hunting or shooting my neighbors chihuahua (though it may be necessary some saturday mornings). If I merely derived pleasure from simply killing believe me there are much better,easier, and cheaper ways to do that than being a hunter. There is no pleasure to me in killing really. But yes I enjoy the chase, yes my heart skips a beat when my crosshairs are on a large buck and I pull the trigger.
But I am a human, I am no better than any other animal. I enjoy the taste of beef, pork, venision, chicken, duck, bear etc. And if I am going to eat it what is the difference in me raising Hereford cattle, chickens, bison, and pigs on my farm which get taken to the slaughterhouse at times and hunting deer, wild hog, ducks, bear, what have you? (Though I will say I don't eat my chickens because they are mostly show breeds and its just easier to but commercial chicken)
Now I may have made you mad about "organizing" a hunting party when I was merely joking with Nano and Khaki that is all. They aren't going to fly halfway around the world to Alabama to hunt.
And as far as maintain the balance of nature, there are no natural predators here. We have Coyote and while they are bigger and more wolf like (owing to them being a hybrid species of smaller western coyote and the remnants of the Red wolf) than the western coyote they still don't maintain the balance of the herd on their own
Without humans regulating the population of whitetail deer they would boom and bust. 100 years ago there were no whitetail deer in Alabama. Now thanks to successful husbandry, regulation by the state, and controlled hunting by the people we have a very healthy large and vibrant deer herd. (One of the top 3 largest for whitetail and thats with being a medium sized state ie about 2 million deer/4 million people in 52000 sq miles) And that herd pumps a lot of money into the local economy through hunting supplies and the like.
But I am a human, I am no better than any other animal. I enjoy the taste of beef, pork, venision, chicken, duck, bear etc. And if I am going to eat it what is the difference in me raising Hereford cattle, chickens, bison, and pigs on my farm which get taken to the slaughterhouse at times and hunting deer, wild hog, ducks, bear, what have you? (Though I will say I don't eat my chickens because they are mostly show breeds and its just easier to but commercial chicken)
Now I may have made you mad about "organizing" a hunting party when I was merely joking with Nano and Khaki that is all. They aren't going to fly halfway around the world to Alabama to hunt.
And as far as maintain the balance of nature, there are no natural predators here. We have Coyote and while they are bigger and more wolf like (owing to them being a hybrid species of smaller western coyote and the remnants of the Red wolf) than the western coyote they still don't maintain the balance of the herd on their own
Without humans regulating the population of whitetail deer they would boom and bust. 100 years ago there were no whitetail deer in Alabama. Now thanks to successful husbandry, regulation by the state, and controlled hunting by the people we have a very healthy large and vibrant deer herd. (One of the top 3 largest for whitetail and thats with being a medium sized state ie about 2 million deer/4 million people in 52000 sq miles) And that herd pumps a lot of money into the local economy through hunting supplies and the like.
well you certainly framed a better post than most of the pro-hunters here could do, that's for sure, so well done on that.
this however brings me to the point (raised on other threads of a similar nature): if there is no pleasure in the kill, then why kill? The thrill of the chase, sure, but why kill the animal? Before you bring up the whitetail deer bit from below, I'll change the animal to an elephant in Africa: would you go on a hunting safari to Africa to kill an elephant? And if so, why, if you don't take pleasure in killing? I genuinely am interested in this because whenever it gets brought up the pro-hunters simply skirt around the issue with "it helps the local communities" etc. That isn't the reason they go to shoot an elephant, that is what they use to justify it; it is at best a side effect of them wanting to kill an elephant.tschandler71 said:
I have no problem with hunting for food.tschandler71 said:
obviously they wouldn't, but me being "mad" was for the inappropriateness of it on a zoo forum.tschandler71 said:
that to me is an acceptable reply which makes sense. But you can't extend that to hunting in general (i.e. worldwide), and I don't think you could claim that most hunters say "I'm going to go shoot some deer today to maintain the balance of nature because I like conservation, but shucks I sure do hate killing".tschandler71 said:
Don't get me wrong, I said plainly that yes I do enjoy the kill as part of the process of hunting, but I don't derive pleasure from simply killing that is the difference I am making sure you understand. Thats what I meant by not like canned hunting or say going and shooting someone's pet.
But I do enjoy hunting every part of it. I enjoy getting up early in the morning when its cold, I enjoy spending time with family/friends, I enjoy sitting in nature watching the sun rise or set from my blind. But yes I do enjoy it when a large buck comes up and I get a good clean one shot kill on them. But when an animal hits the ground be it deer, bear, turkey, duck you do get a mix of emotions and not all of them are joy. So its hard to say that I derive pleasure from the kill itself more like that hunting is a process and I derive pleasure from every part of it. I don't derive hunting from some blood thirsty instinct to kill (because it sounds like you are trying to paint hunters as thrill killers like psycho killers)
And no matter the animal if I harvest it cleanly it goes to the game processor and either I eat it, I give some of it away, or because I personally don't like the sometimes gamey taste associated with bucks it is donated to a local food bank. I often donate 3 bucks a year to them plus a couple of does after my freezer is full.
And as far as what other hunters do, I can't control them or their attitudes. I am an individual and I am only responsible for myself. Now you brought up Elephants, if the population of any animal is sustainable and managed then the legal hunting of a specific animal only increases the herds chances of long term survival. By hunting it you are providing income to locals, pay to the rangers etc. Often on exotic hunts the meat is donated to the guides family or village so someone eats it. Again I don't kill an animal unless myself, my family, or someone will eat the thing. That is why they are called ethics, we each have our own set. But I definitely believe in the positive benefits of sustainable animal management and husbandry. Now obviously when you are down to say Sumatran Rhino numbers hunting is not the issue because the bottleneck means you need them all alive, the mistake is letting a population get to that level without controlling it when its at the level of say the Plains Zebra.
So if there are 10 of a species left then no you shouldn't be hunting, but if there is a large but declining population then yes you should be actively managing them. And controlled and regulated hunting is a good way to generate economic incentive for the locals to protect the animals and their habitat. I know it flies into the face of most environmentalists but economic incentive and profit motivation aren't enemies of conservation they are like guns simply tools whose use depends on the character of the user.
But I do enjoy hunting every part of it. I enjoy getting up early in the morning when its cold, I enjoy spending time with family/friends, I enjoy sitting in nature watching the sun rise or set from my blind. But yes I do enjoy it when a large buck comes up and I get a good clean one shot kill on them. But when an animal hits the ground be it deer, bear, turkey, duck you do get a mix of emotions and not all of them are joy. So its hard to say that I derive pleasure from the kill itself more like that hunting is a process and I derive pleasure from every part of it. I don't derive hunting from some blood thirsty instinct to kill (because it sounds like you are trying to paint hunters as thrill killers like psycho killers)
And no matter the animal if I harvest it cleanly it goes to the game processor and either I eat it, I give some of it away, or because I personally don't like the sometimes gamey taste associated with bucks it is donated to a local food bank. I often donate 3 bucks a year to them plus a couple of does after my freezer is full.
And as far as what other hunters do, I can't control them or their attitudes. I am an individual and I am only responsible for myself. Now you brought up Elephants, if the population of any animal is sustainable and managed then the legal hunting of a specific animal only increases the herds chances of long term survival. By hunting it you are providing income to locals, pay to the rangers etc. Often on exotic hunts the meat is donated to the guides family or village so someone eats it. Again I don't kill an animal unless myself, my family, or someone will eat the thing. That is why they are called ethics, we each have our own set. But I definitely believe in the positive benefits of sustainable animal management and husbandry. Now obviously when you are down to say Sumatran Rhino numbers hunting is not the issue because the bottleneck means you need them all alive, the mistake is letting a population get to that level without controlling it when its at the level of say the Plains Zebra.
So if there are 10 of a species left then no you shouldn't be hunting, but if there is a large but declining population then yes you should be actively managing them. And controlled and regulated hunting is a good way to generate economic incentive for the locals to protect the animals and their habitat. I know it flies into the face of most environmentalists but economic incentive and profit motivation aren't enemies of conservation they are like guns simply tools whose use depends on the character of the user.
If I wanted to kill animals for pleasure I would not spend days carrying a rifle up and down mountains without firing a shot.
The pleasure is hunting. Most people don't hunt to kill, they kill to hunt.
I would love to go to Africa hunting and I would no be to disappointed if I did not shoot anything. The thrill is the hunt and stalking through the bush with the possibility is the exciting part. Once you shoot something you are no longer hunting. I also take photos when I have the opportunity while hunting.
Amen Monty, btw didn't mean to leave you out of this theorhetical trip. But seriously if you guys are ever in the Southeast, I'm basically an hour from Atlanta. We don't have to hunt but I would love to show any Zoochatter in the North Alabama/Huntsville area my farm.
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@tschandler71, this thread popped out of the blue somehow this morning.
I am one of those environmentalists you talked about, however where I differ in most and I see with interest what you have been trying to get across is most succinctly put down in the above.
I am - for what it is worth - an environmentalist that believes in the balance of nature. Hunting in my humble opinion is an instrument in managing a population yes. Good conservation is also a series of policies, procedures and methods to manage a population or a range of species and habitats on a protected area. Where hunting comes in … as I see it … as an option is when that balance has been lost. In my example - the Netherlands - that balance has been seriously lost and hence we no longer can call most larger herbivores and carnivores my country as their - natural - home. Hunting of some herbivore species like wild boar and roe deer is therefore somewhat of a forced on necessity. However, having said that I remain … and for no uncertain reasons a firm supporter of ecosystem recovery including the reintroduction of those species having fallen by the wayside in human encroachment and habitat loss that are an integral part of a given habitat type and by removing all threat categories that have played any party in the demise of the(se) species. At that given moment, I do not see much options for hunting for sport any longer.
Having said that … believe me … when I say I have nothing whatsoever against hunting. Just I find the canned hunting or hunting for pleasure of known endangered species where the science on the sustainability of hunting and population management is missing not very appealing. I have thoroughly read your comments in all discussions and probably get the gist of what you have been trying to say and how you have - in my mind rightly so - tried to explain what motivates you to hunt and what you call the ethics of hunting and also quite rightly pointed out that it is up to the individual.
However, I do believe we have a responsibility - even as hunters - not just to ourselves, but also to the wider community and thus ethics is a code that all good hunters should subscribe to. That barring the few that would not do so and these for all good purposes remain in a category close on criminal behavior.
For what it is worth, I would love to come out … when and if the opportunity arises … to come up from wherever and visit Alabama and your farm. You cannot write about a place if you do not love it that much.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
K.B.
it's because it has a poll option attached. When someone randomly finds the thread and adds to the poll the thread goes to the top of the list as if someone has left a comment. Polls should really have a lifespan.
Right I found the poll fatally flawed as it did not have several existing alternative answers. It is not what you would expect to be an open poll so to speak.
Perhaps admins. should close up this one?
It's just for some stuck up rich guy to shot the poor animals the government should take the ranch off them and give it to a zoo to keep breeding some of the animals and release the rest
recommend reading Allen Green.1999. animal underworld, inside America's black market for rare and exotic species. ISBN 1-891620-28-2. It is available and very cheap on Amazon.com from 1penny to over $1.OO usd plus shipping. Exposure of that time period of AZA facilities and medical colleges selling surplus exotics to unscrupulus breeders and dealers, exotic auctions, canned hunts, private ownership, roadside zoos and exotic sanctuaries.