Hunting Giraffes

Hix said:
Probably not the nicest of stories, and bound to be hotly debated. However, I'm interested to get David Brown's views on this.

Giraffes gunned down for family holiday 'fun' | The Sun |News

:p

Hix
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Thanks for posting Hix. I don't like that people hunt giraffes. Maybe it has some conservation value if the trophy hunting money pays for habitat conservation, poaching patrols, etc., but the main safari economy in these countries is photographic safaris. That is my personal view.

My colleagues at the Giraffe Conservation Foundation have put out the following statement:


Giraffe numbers have nearly halved since the late 1990s from approx. 140,000 to less than 80,000 giraffe across Africa. This decline in numbers is due mainly to habitat loss, habitat segmentation, human population growth and illegal hunting.

Illegal hunting (mainly for bushmeat) has had, and continues to have, a detrimental impact on targeted populations. In conflict areas such as Northern Kenya and potentially in Ethiopia, Chad and C.A.R., illegal hunting is an ongoing problem, but giraffe specialists are still trying to determine what is actually going on there.

Trophy hunting is viewed by some countries as an effective management and conservation tool in increasing populations. The proceeds of hunting can assist local communities to manage their wildlife sustainably by generating some income, which in turn provides an incentive for communities which live in close proximity to wildlife. Giraffe can only legally be hunted in South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe and some Central African countries. However, there is currently no evidence to suggest that legal trophy hunting has attributed to the decrease of giraffe numbers across Africa.

The key message from the Giraffe Conservation Foundation is that giraffe numbers in Africa are plummeting and GCF with our conservation and research partners are working closely with all sectors, and across all countries, to help identify and provide long-term conservation and management for all giraffe species in the wild. GCF does not have a policy regarding trophy hunting.

One final comment from Giraffe Conservation Foundation’s Chairman, Greg Edwards: “GCF is strongly engaged in doing everything we can for the long-term conservation of this graceful, iconic African species.”
 
I think there would be only a very few members on this forum who would understand the mind-set of trophy hunters. I myself could never hunt an animal for sport (and same for sport fishing: I can't really see the appeal of torturing a fish for hours and then releasing it "unharmed"), however I don't actually have a problem with the activity per se so long as it doesn't harm the population. It is true that the proud victors standing over their kills look like monumental tossers (even more so when the kill is a warthog or marabou stork!), but the argument goes that the fee is greater than that brought in by safari tourists (including the guides and tracking fees), putting a monetary value on the animals increases the protection level of the population as a whole, and the hunts are on private land. I gather that there are land-holds of considerable size in various African countries where the owners allow large populations of wild animals to live (rather than converting to farmland or ranching) because of the revenue that trophy hunting brings in.
 
IanRRobinson said:
How anyone could get kicks out of posing with those photos is utterly beyond me. Horrid.
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One of the conditions of the hunting licenses to shoot giraffes, elephants, and lions should be that you have to post a photo of yourself and your trophy on a wildlife conservation chat room.

"Look at me everybody, I'm Ernest Hemingway! I'm Teddy Roosevelt!"

No you're not, you're a complete a*****e. Thank you for contributing to wildlife conservation. Now shut up and go away.
 
Since nobody else with give another view I will do it.

The final quote of the article is.

"In the countries where you can hunt legally, the populations are increasing but across Africa the numbers are dropping.

"It shows that if properly managed, the hunting can be sustainable."
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What are peoples actual problems with it. Why are giraffes different. They live their lives free and are killed near the end of their lives quickly and much more humanely than in nature.

Is it OK to raise other species such as goats,sheep and cows which will also survive and live happily in the wild, then load them on a truck and transport them to abattoirs while young and have them killed by someone else for your consumption.

I can not see a problem with the hunting of any species if it is managed and does not harm the actual species numbers and is done humanely. Controlled and regulated hunting will always benefit the species. The best way to drop Giraffe numbers further would be to ban there hunting completely.
 
Monty said:
way to drop Giraffe numbers further would be to ban there hunting completely.
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The key words in the quote are " if properly managed, the hunting can be sustainable". Without sustainable management hunting would likely knock down giraffe populations. Most African countries don't have the infrastructure to make sure that hunting is sustainable.

I'm not anti-hunting Monty, but the reality on the ground in the places where these animals live in the wild is that trophy hunting can do a lot of damage if the managers don't really know what they are doing. It takes very little to cross the threshold from sustainable to unsustainable and the science to measure this is sometimes over-riden by the amount of money to be made. I have no doubt that you are a very responsible hunter and that your prey base in Australia is well-managed, but what I saw and heard in my work in Zambia was not encouraging in relation to lion and buffalo hunting and the sustainability of it.

I think that Namibia and South Africa and Zimbabwe before Mugabe went insane probably do (did for Zimbabwe) have good infrastructure for trophy hunting that qualifies as genuine conservation, but even that has to be closely monitored.

As for why giraffes are special relative to goats, ducks, etc. that is obviously a matter of personal preference. To me shooting a giraffe is like shooting a Van Gogh, and shooting an elephant, an extremely intelligent animal with a complex society, is like shooting a young human (the approximate equivalent of an elephant in intelligence perhaps), but that is obviously not the opinion of the folks in the article that Hix posted.
 
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Australia is a lot different as we only hunt introduced animals unless you are a professional kangaroo shooter shooting for the meat market. Qld is the only state where you can buy permit to shoot Kangaroos for your own consumption.
The only regulated hunting is of Hog Deer which only occur in a small area and have a short season, and Red and Fallow deer which have a closed season.
Most shooting in Australia is for feral animals where the aim is to reduce the population as much as possible.

The best way to prevent over shooting and unsustainable practices in Africa would be to give hunting guides long term exclusive access to areas as well as government set scientific based quota numbers. If the guide knows they will not loose their area and will not get another they area they manage the animals better as they know the animals will get old and not be killed by someone else. I have herd of instances in Africa where guides have bought the rights to hunting reserves and the guide who has been there for years managing the area well is kicked off. The new guide gets clients to shoot as many animals as they legally can to make a quick buck and does damage to the areas wildlife. The government also makes more money as they sell more permits. The system can be corrupted. In most instances though guides do manage areas sustainably as they will keep their rights. They also do most of the anti poaching work as they are there every day and any poachers are taking their income.
 
I accidentally came across this while posting on the pigmy hog thread, and thought I might throw it on here: hunting bongos! Good grief.
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I (Adam Clements) just returned from a hunt in the forest of Cameroon and can only say that it was one of the best experiences and adventures that I have been on. I have hunted all over Africa, and have shot most of the animals in Africa, but I had yet to get the Bongo which was next on my priorities. There is so much to say and talk about, but do not think that I will be able to explain the exact experience by words. The rain forest is a special place and nothing like I had ever experienced before. This is a very specialized hunt, and you pretty much go to hunt for the Bongo. Any of the other species that are there will just be an extra bonus if you happen to get them. So, you do not go there expecting to do a lot of shooting, but simply to go and to get one of the worlds most beautiful animals, the Bongo. Pictures do not do this animal justice, and until you set your eyes on a Bongo up close in the forest, you will never realize how beautiful and how special these animals really are. I am very happy that I was privileged to go and do this hunt, and would highly recommend it to anyone looking for a special experience.
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Chlidonias said:
I accidentally came across this while posting on the pigmy hog thread, and thought I might throw it on here: hunting bongos! Good grief.
New Page 2 (photos on the link, so those of a delicate disposition may not want to look)
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Highly impressed by the photo of the hunter with that ferocious quarry species, the Blue Duiker.
 
Reminds me of an episode of South Park where they were nominating people for the "Biggest Douche in the Universe" award. I'd like to nominate Dr Bax and his companions for the award please.
 
To me it is no different if someone say shoots a gorilla, an elephant, a Thomson's gazelle or a marabou stork, I find them to be valued equally to each other (my personal thoughts of course). But I do not have a problem with hunting as such as long as it controlled and is done properly (with a quick kill). Personally I would never shoot an animal, but I can see why some would do it.
 
Obviously I find the picture of these people posing with the dead giraffe stomach churning, particularly with children, I was equally sickened here in the U.K. the other day when I saw that our prime minister is determined to re introduce fox hunting with hounds which was outlawed by the previous government after years of campaigning to have this disgusting, medieval practice stopped. I would have thought there would have been more pressing concerns for this current government considering the bad shape the economy, unemployment, etc. are in at the moment, but no, Mr. Cameron wants to spend parliamentary time and money to legalise this just to "amuse and pleasure " himself and his fellow Etonian hooray Henries, despicable.
 
Electus Parrot said:
To me it is no different if someone say shoots a gorilla, an elephant, a Thomson's gazelle or a marabou stork, I find them to be valued equally to each other (my personal thoughts of course). But I do not have a problem with hunting as such as long as it controlled and is done properly (with a quick kill). Personally I would never shoot an animal, but I can see why some would do it.
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I dislike hunting, dont understand why people can get a kick out of it but accept that it can have conservation value. However I do draw the line at those species that are obviously more intelligent than others, such as the gorilla and elephant. These animals mourn their dead and in areas where they ar hunted their social and emotional libes can be severly disripted.
 
I think someone is either running a campaign or media organisation just plagiarise each other, most likely the later.

Hunters pay big bucks to shoot giraffes | Herald Sun

Funny how there can be so many comments on how bad hunting is when even the article states that countries with hunting do not have a problem with falling Giraffe numbers.

TARZAN said:
Obviously I find the picture of these people posing with the dead giraffe stomach churning, particularly with children, I was equally sickened here in the U.K. the other day when I saw that our prime minister is determined to re introduce fox hunting with hounds which was outlawed by the previous government after years of campaigning to have this disgusting, medieval practice stopped. I would have thought there would have been more pressing concerns for this current government considering the bad shape the economy, unemployment, etc. are in at the moment, but no, Mr. Cameron wants to spend parliamentary time and money to legalise this just to "amuse and pleasure " himself and his fellow Etonian hooray Henries, despicable.
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As someone from a country with introduced foxes I know how much damage they do. I shot a fox one night which had just killed 5 lambs and not eaten a bit of any. Just last night I also shot a fox which had killed one of my chooks and was killing a second. Even in the UK foxes are in no way endangered and kill more lambs than people think. Hounds are an efficient and humane way to control fox numbers. Is your problem the killing of foxes or the use of hounds.
 
Monty said:
Hounds are an efficient and humane way to control fox numbers. Is your problem the killing of foxes or the use of hounds.
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seriously? As I said earlier I don't have a problem if people want to go hunting for sport -- I don't really understand the compulsion but so long as its not endangering a species then so be it -- but you can't honestly believe this? Hunting foxes with hounds is so far removed from humane its not funny, and if its an efficient way to control fox numbers then I'm Santa Claus. As Oscar Wilde said, fox-hunting with hounds is the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.
 
jay said:
I dislike hunting, dont understand why people can get a kick out of it but accept that it can have conservation value. However I do draw the line at those species that are obviously more intelligent than others, such as the gorilla and elephant. These animals mourn their dead and in areas where they ar hunted their social and emotional libes can be severly disripted.
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Hunting only really has a conservation value when taxes and other economic measures derived from the hunting activities are funneled towards conservation projects and wildlife management.
 
Chlidonias said:
seriously? As I said earlier I don't have a problem if people want to go hunting for sport -- I don't really understand the compulsion but so long as its not endangering a species then so be it -- but you can't honestly believe this? Hunting foxes with hounds is so far removed from humane its not funny, and if its an efficient way to control fox numbers then I'm Santa Claus. As Oscar Wilde said, fox-hunting with hounds is the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.
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Thank you, you have answered for me, my thoughts exactly. No I suppose it is not much fun if you are a farmer and a fox kills your lambs, however the fox is a wild dog just going about its normal business, the lambs, unfortunately are not domestic pets, most will be slaughtered at only a few months old, does the farmer have any qualms about this?, even worse if they are killed by means of Halal or Kosher slaughter, I suggest not, farming is a business and therefore has to make a profit, the loss of a lamb to a fox is primarily a monetary one to the farmer. What concerns me about the current prime minister's attempt to legalise fox hunting when only a few years ago it was outlawed by the previous government is how can he be a compassionate human being when he is so keen on this disgusting practice?, apart from the other important issues that have to be addressed currently in this country, can anybody who loves this blood sport so much be capable of having feelings towards fellow living beings, perhaps he is attempting to continue the good work of one of his predecessors, who was quite happy to see miners and their families virtually starve during 1984/5, and when they had to return to work after a year with no wages, declared"Yes, I'm gloating", also stating at her front door step after giving the instruction to kill many people on the Belgrano which was outside the zone at the time in the Falklands, "rejoice at that news", need I say more, and if zoo chatters think about defending this person, just remember who stopped London Zoo's money, and would not have cared less if it had closed down.
 
Chlidonias said:
seriously? As I said earlier I don't have a problem if people want to go hunting for sport -- I don't really understand the compulsion but so long as its not endangering a species then so be it -- but you can't honestly believe this? Hunting foxes with hounds is so far removed from humane its not funny, and if its an efficient way to control fox numbers then I'm Santa Claus. As Oscar Wilde said, fox-hunting with hounds is the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.
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Have you ever seen a fox caught by hounds? Being from NZ I don't expect you have much experience with fox control as you are lucky to live in one of the very few places without foxes.

I have seen stag hounds catch foxes and one shake and they are dead, one second.
Fox hounds though rarely catch foxes when we do fox drives as they are slower than the stag hounds. They just follow the scent and chase the foxes out to the waiting shooters. They usually arrive soon after the fox is shot and give the dead fox a munch to make sure it is dead, and one bite would be all it takes to kill a fox.
Both dog breeds will kill a fox immediately and what is not humane about that.

As for your second claim of it not being efficient to use fox hounds, they find hidden foxes in stubbles easily and drive them out and follow the scent to where they can be shot. Stag hounds are a sight hunter and will run down and kill any fox they see.
 
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