Highland Wildlife Park Hwp 2010

I hate it when people and places say 'failed' with a species and just give up on them. Sure, some of the hoofstock at Highlands are doing badly at the moment, but rather than saying 'we've failed with this species,' they should be saying 'right, so that doesn't work. Should we stop keeping them? NO! Let's look at what we're doing, try and pinpoint what we're doing wrong, and if possible try and fix the situation in the hope of better success then.'

For example, if it is a parasite from damp ground, why not try building a hardstanding area and seeing if that works? If it is climate, source new stock from somewhere with similar conditions. I think the moment a zoo says that they have failed with a species, it's just because they've given up. I think, maybe, it can be said if money can't be found, or the source of the problem can't be found. Trial and error does cost, but I think they should look into their husbandary and think what it could be, narrow it down a bit and hopefully find an answer. Then, they may have success in the future if they can learn from any possible mistakes in husbandary now?

I don't know, my two cents anyway :D
 
Javan Rhino said:
For example, if it is a parasite from damp ground, why not try building a hardstanding area and seeing if that works? If it is climate, source new stock from somewhere with similar conditions.
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The problem is;

1. Hardstandings and yards look unnatural and may go against the zoo's exhibiting ethos. (Parasites may also be present in soil from other grazers that have used an area previously)

2. Climate- many central Asian species come from very cold, but dry climates e.g. steppe or high plateau species. So you can't (necessarily) get them from any other climatic area, or not ones that will survive any better.

I'm not saying HWP have 'failed' with any of their more unusual ungulate species yet... but it could happen in the future perhaps.:(
 
@Pertinax - ahh, fair play. I suppose if numbers continue to dwindle, they could try some swaps with Edinburgh and see if they fare any better there? Obviously climate is still a problem in that, but maybe any parasites would be non-existant at the zoo?

I know my post sounded quite snappy, sure wasn't supposed to :D
 
Not sure about that- Edinburgh only have limited room but maybe some harder ground paddocks that are parasite free( we are only speculating that could be a problem in this case anyway).

I think some of the Himalayan species at HWP and the Bactrian deer haven't been exhibited in the UK for a very long time (if ever) so realistically keeping them at HWP must be somewhat in the nature of an experiment. These are mostly species that if kept in the Uk before were in urban zoo enclosures such as the Mappin terraces etc
andhaven't been kept in open settings.

I am equally curious/concerned about the Thorold's Deer at Edinburgh (a large group imported from Berlin) as again this is another species which no one has kept in recent times in the UK so there's no real knowledge on just how successful (or otherwise) their survival prospects and breeding might be longterm. Again they are a high Tibetan plateau 'dry cold' species I believe.
 
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Pertinax said:
Not sure about that- Edinburgh only have limited room but maybe some harder ground paddocks that are parasite free( we are only speculating that could be a problem in this case anyway).

I think some of the Himalayan species at HWP and the Bactrian deer haven't been exhibited in the UK for a very long time (if ever) so realistically keeping them at HWP must be somewhat in the nature of an experiment.

I am equally concerned about the Thorold's Deer at Edinburgh (a large group imported from Berlin) as again no one has kept these in modern times in the UK so there's no real knowledge on just how sucessful (or otherwise) their survivaly and breeding might be longterm. Again they are a high Tibetan plateu species I believe.
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I was suggesting swapping some species, but to be honest I can't think what else Highlands could have (Amur leopard, wolverine, goral), but that wouldn't make much room.

I do hope that Highlands can find away around whatever the problem is, there are some interesting species there, and like you say, they have a lot of 'only ones in Britains'
 
According to ISIS they only have 3 (2.1) Bactrian Deer. I don't know how many they started with but it sounds to me like this is a 'failed' species already..:(
 
Highland Wildlife Park

It's probably a question of getting the parasite control right and working out how much weather protection they need as well as adjusting the diet to take account of living conditions. Lots of cold climate things hate wet. Even sea ducks hate damp boggy ground, and will go down with all sorts of things. High altitude Pheasants are fine in snow, and are liable to disease in wet conditions. Two of the classic authors on 'keeping things' [Crandall & Bedford] both emphasise that some ungulates [particularly wild sheep & goats, but also some deer closely related to common & easily kept species] breed well and live long in yards, and go to pieces on grass.
London Zoo had wonderful breeding results with Bharal in the late 19th & early 20th century, for example; just the sort of thing that might be more difficult under more 'natural' conditions. However, at one time it was thought necessary to provide sterile concrete bathrooms for Gorillas to live in. Aspinall led the way, and methods changed; there are probably similar breakthroughs aroiund the corner with 'difficult' ungulates.
 
FBBird said:
Lots of cold climate things hate wet.
Yes, I think that is a very important factor. Because in the regions these mountain and steppe species of sheep/goats and deer largely come from, the cold is intense but its a 'dry cold' not 'damp' as here in the milder but much wetter UK. Mind you, HWP's animals are perhaps currently experiencing a proper dose of 'Himalayan' conditions at present but it may only be a short blast..

Even a lot of water loving animals themselves suffer if forced to endure prolonged immersion or overly damp conditions e.g. some waterfowl, otters etc. I have a feeling Fairy Penguins may not be climatically suited to the UK either...
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Has anyone thought of actually asking someone at HWP about why some of these species groups are smaller and what the causes were?
 
hedigerfan said:
Has anyone thought of actually asking someone at HWP about why some of these species groups are smaller and what the causes were?
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Good idea but maybe someone who knows the Park well could list on here any species they know have gone 'downhill' since they arrived, and by approximate numbers? So far I'm aware of the Bactrian Deer, Takin, Markhor and Urial sheep but there may be other reasons for the lower numbers in some cases-e.g. movement out?
 
Unfortunately Edingurgh have not published on-line the 2009 stocklist for HWP so the following relates to 2008 .

Forest Reindeer - 2.0 at start , 6.5 imported , 3.3 died , leaving 5.2 .

Bukhara Deer - 3.6 at start , 0.2 received , 3.2(2.1) born , 0.7 died , leaving 4.2

Bukhara Urial - 3.3 received , 2.1(1.1) born , 2.2 died , leaving 2.1 .

Turkmenian Markhor - 1.2 at start , 5.2 received , 3.0.3(0.0.2) born , 0.1.1 died , 2.0 departed , leaving 7.3 .

Mishmi Takin - 4.4 imported , 0.2 born , 4.6 at end .

The last pair of Markhor from Blackpool arrived early 2010 . So there must have been further losses of these in 2010 . Also the losses in the Takin group appear to have been during this year .
 
Bele said:
Unfortunately Edingurgh have not published on-line the 2009 stocklist for HWP so the following relates to 2008 .

Forest Reindeer - 2.0 at start , 6.5 imported , 3.3 died , leaving 5.2 .

Bukhara Deer - 3.6 at start , 0.2 received , 3.2(2.1) born , 0.7 died , leaving 4.2

Bukhara Urial - 3.3 received , 2.1(1.1) born , 2.2 died , leaving 2.1 .

Turkmenian Markhor - 1.2 at start , 5.2 received , 3.0.3(0.0.2) born , 0.1.1 died , 2.0 departed , leaving 7.3 .

Mishmi Takin - 4.4 imported , 0.2 born , 4.6 at end .

The last pair of Markhor from Blackpool arrived early 2010 . So there must have been further losses of these in 2010 . Also the losses in the Takin group appear to have been during this year .
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Every time I see a stock list arranged like this with th number of deaths I am always supprised at how many animals actually die each year. I mean, 7 female deer out of nine is a terrible amount. I wonder what the cause was?
 
lechweoryx said:
Every time I see a stock list arranged like this with th number of deaths I am always supprised at how many animals actually die each year. I mean, 7 female deer out of nine is a terrible amount. I wonder what the cause was?
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[pedant mode]

The list show 7 deer deaths out of 13 animals; 3.6 + 0.2 + 1.1 surviving young.

[/pedant mode]
 
Maguari said:
[pedant mode]

The list show 7 deer deaths out of 13 animals; 3.6 + 0.2 + 1.1 surviving young.

[/pedant mode]
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Tally up the number of females and its 9... so '7 out of 9' was correct too.

ISIS currently list only 2.1, instead of 4.2. I fear this is one species there already on the way out...:(
Its not looking good for the Urial sheep either...

Thanks to Bele for providing the stats.
 
Sorry - missed the 'female'!
 
I believe that the Urial sheep are all gone . I presume they come from the same area in Asia as the deer , both being Bukhara sub-species .

After a quick Google search I have found that both are found in parts of Uzbekistan , Tajikstan and Turkmenistan and surrounds . Neither is a mountain species . The sheep are said to be found on grassy slopes below the timber line , the deer in riparian corridors surrounded by desert .
 
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Interesting how this discussion has progressed. Another species which has been mentioned for HWP is musk ox. Previously I have mentioned that the wet conditions of Scotland do not look favourably on keeping this species as they too enjoy cold and dry conditions, particularly the calves which would be born in the height of a rainy Scottish winter.
 
Perhaps draining some paddocks and putting windscreens and non-heated shelters would solve the problem?

I wondered before why HWP thinks it has bad climate for zoo animals - aren't you aware what winters look like in Chicago, Berlin, Tokyo, Beijing or Edmonton? Snow, cold, wind, damp as you wish.

Anyway, lots of rare animals come from much colder, wetter and windier climates - C China, Japan, Andes for example.
 
Jurek7 said:
Perhaps draining some paddocks and putting windscreens and non-heated shelters would solve the problem?

Anyway, lots of rare animals come from much colder, wetter and windier climates - C China, Japan, Andes for example.
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Scotland, like the rest of UK, is currently experiencing a very early winter freeze, but generally its wet,wet, wet and I don't think much can be done to alleviate that.

Its largely irrelevant what climates other rare species are adapted to, each species has its own particular tolerance level and in this case it seems these Bactrian Deer and Urial Sheep don't thrive in Scotland..
 
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