I already can map my own zoo after a plan, on a particular location that I own

[Batto]

What is UP, Batto/.

It's a pun; to encourage you both to think out of the box and to elevate exhibits.

When you want to start from the ground and cannot even guarantee constant adequate water supply, penguins, no matter what species, might not be the optimal choice to begin with.

Since choosing the "right" animal species seems to be a priority for you, I'd suggest species that can be kept in the local climate and do not require a lot of water; maybe dry grassland / desert species such as fennec fox and meerkat, or animals able to adopt to a variety to habitats, such as peccaries and Hystrix porcupines, might be a good choice. As the closest zoo nearby already has a leopard, a different species (or a different morph => black panther) might be an alternative.

 

[Zooplantman]

The only thing I can recommend you is patience and to keep both feet on the ground (of reality). As for limited ground area: why not think UP?

I agree! A small zoo, especially one with smaller animals, can be quite exciting and a rich experience. Here is one I worked on. Very small site, all native animals.
This was done with top quality construction and so was VERY expensive, but consider the idea rather than the style:

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Batto, the location is not arid, maybe it is not even a semi-arid as I described it in the first post, but a close to semi-arid , and generaly there is a water all-year round, from a ground water tap - lake water, or from a well. The shortage of water may occur in summer months. The area recieves around 540 mm or 540 liters of precipitation/ yearly/ per square meter.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

After the suggestion of CGSwans, I calculated the following, if you have time and patiente to read this, but this will change of course, these are just a general, basic calculations. The species list maybe is too ambitious, but it is not for starting, but for a full potential of the zoo. I may start with several species :

- Total area: 3,196.0 m2


-Ungulate enclosures (giraffes or hippos), or reserve area : 2 x 200.0 m2, and indoor quarters - 4 x 25.0 m2.
-Leopards or jaguars: 2 x 64.0 m2, and indoor enclosures - 3 x 6.0 m2 + 20.0 m2.
-Fishing cats or servals: 2 x 49.0 m2, and indoor enclosures - 3 x 6.0 m2 + 21.0 m2.
-Meerkats: 16.0 m2, and indoor box – 2 x 2.0 m2.
-Fennec fox: 2 x 16.0 m2, and indoor enclosures, 2 x 4.0 m2.
-Red kangaroos: 150.0 m2 + 50.0 m2 , and indoor enclosures – 2 x 10.0 m2.
-Ring-tailed lemurs: 2 x 36.0 m2, and indoor enclosures - 3 x 6.0 m2 + 18.0 m2.
-Black and white colobus: 2 x 49.0 m2, and indoor enclosures - 3 x 6.0 m2 + 20.0 m2.
-Lar gibbons or even, maybe, orangutans: 2 x 49.0 m2, and indoor enclosures - 3 x 6.0 m2 + 20.0 m2.
-Brown lemurs: 2 x 36.0 m2, and indoor enclosures - 3 x 6.0 m2 + 18.0 m2.
-Two species of tamarins/marmosets: Indoor enclosures with direct sun influence, 4 x 9.0 m2.
Subtotal for mammals: 1,607.0 m2.


-Fenced on ground tunnel for distant walk, behavioral enrichment, for giraffes or hippos, red kangaroos: 200.0 m2 (dimensions 2.5x80.0 m)
-Fenced, roofed, on ground tunnel for distant walk, behavioral enrichment, for felids, parrots, ground hornbills, crowned cranes, marabou storks: 105.0 m2 (dimensions 1.5x70.0 m).
-Fenced, roofed, on ground tunnel for distant walk, behavioral enrichment, for non-human primates: 105.0 m2 (dimensions 1.5x70.0 m).
Subtotal for animal walk tunnels: 410.0 m2.


(Indoor enclosures with direct sun influence)
-Blue-and-yellow macaw or blue-throated macaw: 25.0 m2; Eclectus parrot: 16.0 m2; Black-capped lory: 16.0 m2; Red-colared lory: 16.0 m2; Blue-eyed cockatoo or yellow-crested cockatoos: 16.0 m2; Toucans, any species: 2 x 32.0 m2 ; rest for these birds, 16.0 m2
-Southern ground hornbills: 36.0 m2
-Griffon vultures: 49.0 m2
-African fish eagles: 49.0 m2
-Flamingos: 36.0 m2
-Humbolt’s penguins: 16.0 m2
-Marabou storks: 25.0 m2
-Crowned cranes: in giraffe enclosure, + 9.0 m2
-Separation pens for birds: 4x 9.0 m2
Subtotal for birds: 427.0 m2

-Reptile house – ‘broken glass’ style: 100.0 m2.
-Frogs and terrestrial invertebrates: 16.0 m2.

-Caranthine/isolation rooms: 4x 9.0 m2 + 28.0 m2.
-Necropsy room: 6.0 m2
-Main building/vet rooms: 22.0 m2
-Food storage/preparation: 25.0 m2
-Central heating source: 2 x 9.0 m2
-Micro -restaurant: 36.0 m2
-Presentation area: 36.0 m2
-Visitor toilets and disposal/septic tank: 16.0 m2
-Trush storage area, including tank with Californian worms: 9.0 m2
-Used sand recycling/clearing area: 9.0 m2
-Water storage area: 9.0 m2
-Other/free space: 2 x 20.0 m2
-Visitor walking paths: remaining 124.0 m2 – very little space
-Parking lots: 222.0 m2

 

[Batto]

You know, you're sometimes a walking, talking contradiction to me, Nikola. And I mean that in the most pleasant, non-aggressive and hopefully not negatively interpreted way. Hopefully, the following will not be considered a rant, too.

In your many, many threads, you have stressed how important it is to you to keep zoo animals in the most exclusive, largest exhibits, incorporating all aspects of modern zoo husbandry. You have scolded major established zoos for not living up to said standards. Now, for your project, you propose enclosure sizes that are just at the lowest end of the acceptable scale (like 200m2 for, what, two hippos?). You Tetris-cramp your potential zoo full with animals just for the sake of a species collection. Where's the originality, the animal welfare or modern husbandry aspect in that? And what, to repeat myself, is your leitmotif, your USPs? Just getting the most attainable species you like? What about an original theme, like presenting native wildlife of Macedonia and teaching your compatriots about them? Or about conservation, the ills of unauthorized wildlife trafficking or poaching? Where's the animal-visitor interactivity, i.e. walk-through exhibits, petting zoo etc.?
And why do you still want to get our advice when you, despite previous critique, nevertheless bring up faulty ideas such as the "broken glass" herpetarium again?
Last but not least: if you want to run your zoo like a business (which you should if you don't want it to be a dead concept), you should start with the visitor amenities first and treat them as priorities. Among others, the restaurant (and the nonexistent gift shop) will be one of your major sources of income and shouldn't be marginalized. And visitor walks shouldn't be cramped.
Sorry for sounding like a despiteous know-it-all, but as previously mentioned, I'd advise you to keep both feet on the ground, especially in regard to such an investment. And I wish you good luck and foresight for your future planning.

 

[lintworm]

otherwise four penguins of this species

4 penguins however sounds like a very low number for an animal normally living in larger colonies.....

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Ok Batto, thank you for that. I know such a zoo will be cramped. Guess what, today I recieved a call for offer for bigger site, double the size of this, and cheaper than this, when I finally purchased this, in a village near Prilep. Maybe I will restart with the project, and I will purchase this land for a year or less from now and I will sell this. Otherwise, the plan for enclosures and species chosed, for this current site, will be re-arranged.

Macedonian people, and childs, - most of them have access to villages and farms with domestic animals, - friends and cousins, so a petting zoo wouldn't be very attractive. The similar is with the Macedonian wildlife, I think it wouldn't be very attractive.

But it is not just 200 m2 for a 2 hippos, but 2 x 200 m2 plus a walk in a tunnel .

And quarantine, not caranthine, and trash not trush, in my post.

 

[Batto]

I know such a zoo will be cramped.

It doesn't have to be cramped if you plan correctly.

Macedonian people, and childs, - most of them have access to villages and farms with domestic animals, - friends and cousins, so a petting zoo wouldn't be very attractive.

Then bring in domestic breeds that are neither native and nor familiar to Macedonians, may it be somali sheep, miniature pigs or four-horned goats. If you want to attract young families with kids, you will need a safe option for visitors and animals to interact (and before someone tries to wisecrack: yeah, four horned goats might not be the best option for very young children). Therefore, petting zoos are a standard in most zoos these days. Just because you don't appreciate petting zoos doesn't mean that your customers don't want them. And they are an extra source of income if you sell special food the visitors can feed the animals with.

The similar is with the Macedonian wildlife, I think it wouldn't be very attractive.

If Macedonians are anything like other nations' citizens, then the majority has only limited if any knowledge about native wildlife. This is a knowledge gap that needs to be filled, with zoos playing a major role in doing just that. And to refer once again to Conway's Bullfrog example, native animals can make a fascinating addition to your collection, if exhibited well. You know which species is one of the most popular in my exhibition? The Vipera berus. Many visitors have already exclaimed their joy and excitement to finally watch a live one. Why not build naturalistic outdoor enclosures for your native reptile species that you always speak of and teach your visitors to distinguish between the local venomous and non-venomous snake species? That might save the lives of many snakes (and slowworms).

But it is not just 200 m2 for a 2 hippos, but 2 x 200 m2 plus a walk in a tunnel .

Still not a lot if you want to keep a herd of the species, which is the most naturalistic, modern way to keep this species.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Yes, some wildlife native to R.Macedonia will definitively be interesting, like nose-horned viper, leopard snake, etc., or marbled polecat - I never seen this animal, but many of them would be difficult to maintain in captivity, for example you know that colubrids in general, are far more difficult to maintain in captivity than vipers.. You are guessing what lost will be if I obtain marbled polecats finaly, just for they do not fit well into captive life and finaly die in a short period after obtaining. Brown bears, wolves, foxes, deers are present in Skopje and Bitola zoo, and even in some restaurant parks and private non-public properties. I thus chose some more robust-to maintain captive species, like ring-tailed lemur, hippos, marabou storks, parrots, orangutans, southern ground hornbills, red kangaroos, leopards. I also taught of these animals like an opportunity to house surplus animals and help other zoos with housing them. You know, for example, many zoos are phasing-out orangutans - or their captive population is slowly decreasing, or the hippos - just four UK zoos keeps them.
I may however exhibit native wildlife, for example some reptiles in the reptile house, or domestic animals like southern-Macedonian - ''Mariovo'' donkey, because I don't want to lose this domestic breed, and most of them are not wanted and people let them free roam in villages during summer months, and their numbers are decreasing and close to extinction. Petting zoo with ponnies and other animals is not excluded too, it just I am far from that. I now must focus on money making and obtaining construction permits.

 

[Batto]

for example you know that colubrids in general, are far more difficult to maintain in captivity than vipers.

That depends a lot on the species we're talking about; especially among the Colubrinae, some species are very well represented in captivity (Lampropeltis, Pantherophis sp. in particular).
Several of your local snake species are kept quite successfully in zoos and by private keepers. And should do better in outdoor enclosures than indoors.
I've seen marbled polecats in zoos (TP Berlin, Nuremberg) and they seemed to do better than you describe.
No offence, but I doubt that a starting zoo is the best place to carter to the high husbandry demands of great apes. Hippos might be robust, but the costs and demands to keep them well/healthy (and safe!) might also not be the best for a limited budget.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I've seen marbled polecats in zoos (TP Berlin, Nuremberg) and they seemed to do better than you describe.

And I can add Edinburgh and Magdeburg to the list of places which have successfully kept Marbled Polecat for many years in point of fact, the individual in my profile picture died of extreme old age, to the best of my understanding!

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

I don't know whether pairs of, or several individuals of, black-capped lory, red-collared lorikeet (Australia) and blue-eyed or other white cockatoo species can be successfuly mixed together, with an expectations to breed, in a tropical aviary with dimensions 6x6x5 m. What can anyone suggest/ Such small aviary would be realy nice, with three species of parrots from close geographical origin.

 

[CGSwans]

I don't know whether pairs of, or several individuals of, black-capped lory, red-collared lorikeet (Australia) and blue-eyed or other white cockatoo species can be successfuly mixed together, with an expectations to breed, in a tropical aviary with dimensions 6x6x5 m. What can anyone suggest/ Such small aviary would be realy nice, with three species of parrots from close geographical origin.

I don't know enough to say for sure, though purely from a maintenance perspective you don't really want to mix nectar and seed-eating parrots. Do you know how messy lorikeets can be?

That aside, though, this is a much smarter sort of thing to be talking about. Giraffes, leopards, hippos and orang-utans in a zoo that's less than a third the size of Zurich's Masoala Hall is frankly ridiculous.

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

in a zoo that's less than a third the size of Zurich's Masoala Hall is frankly ridiculous.

I looked at pictures from Masoala Hall, are you sure of its size CGSwans, because it don't looks like it is more than three times larger than an area with 3,200 m2. Maybe you are confused due to calculations in square feets or square inches or acres/

 

[Maguari]

I looked at pictures from Masoala Hall, are you sure of its size CGSwans, because it don't looks like it is more than three times larger than an area with 3,200 m2. Maybe you are confused due to calculations in square feets or square inches or acres/

The Masoala building footprint is approximately 11000m2 (90m x120m): ZooLex Exhibit

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

Maybe it is frankly ridiculous, but it is possible and probably acceptable, since the size of the enclosure for giraffe is not unacceptable - 400m2 plus 100m2 indoor. To be more clear, the plan was not for holding both giraffe and hippos at the same time, but just one of this species and holding of non-breeding, few animals. I think there are zoos that would have even smaller outdoor enclosures for its giraffes than this. The same probably is case with leopard or orangutan enclosures.
Belgrade zoo keeps its orangutans in indoor enclosures with size of a living room and in a same-sized outdoor enclosures - of course this should be changed. I can't think of a zoo with small orangutan enclosure other than Belgrade zoo, but for leopard yes, at least several zoos have leopard enclosures with a size of 50 to 100m2 outdoor.

 

[CGSwans]

Leopard enclosures everywhere are outrageously small. Don't add another one.

Obviously none of us have seen your new property, but on size alone it is not appropriate for a collection based around big mammals. Perhaps if you chose *one* such species - say, a leopard - you could use that as your marketing anchor. But with the space you have available any more than that is just not sensible. Your giraffes (in a parallel dimension where you could feasibly obtain giraffes) will be a big attraction, sure, until everybody in town has seen them. Then what? Will they pay their money again to see them?

No. You need to have a broader collection than that. To make such a small site work you need to be interactive. You need to be pitching your business at kid's birthday parties, work Christmas parties and the like. A ramshackle collection of half a dozen ABCs in crappy enclosures doesn't get that sort of business.

To make it into your zoo an animal should have three criteria: it should be small, it should be active, and it should be something that will cope with visitor interactions. Meerkats, lemurs, parrots and snakes, yes. Giraffes and hippos no.

 

[Zooplantman]

Belgrade zoo keeps its orangutans in indoor enclosures with size of a living room and in a same-sized outdoor enclosures

So the question is, is that the sort of zoo you wish to own?

 

[Nikola Chavkosk]

So the question is, is that the sort of zoo you wish to own?

No. Too many concrete, too little surface with grass/natural substrate.
But for my current property, there is a good chance that will expand for additional around 1,000 m2, so they can be used solely for a giraffe exhibit - a several part enclosure, for allowing grass to grow in parts, while the giraffes are in another part. Trees too. I want to see a giraffe/s in an enclosure well planted with trees, like in a bush. Giraffe among small trees, sounds beautifull.
I will never put concrete on walking paths for visitors, they will be from a natural substrate. I don't like a lot of concrete, other than some walls of the indoor enclosures and buildings.

 

[Coelacanth18]

Nikola, what prior experience have you had working in animal care? Also, are you planning to hire a staff of animal care professionals to assist you?

I know this thread is about the property plan, but I feel like these are essential questions to ask.