I can't tell how Zoochat feels about the AZA.

[Wisp O' Mist]

I wouldn't exactly call this petty,

You're the one who implied that the AZA withholds accreditation for minor reasons, friend.

but as you said, the zoo had already begun addressing this problem and they still lost accreditation.

Yes, because they hadn't completed them. The El Paso Zoo knew that the inspection was coming and they still failed it. I assume that failing infrastructure is an automatic fail.

It's unfortunate, but that's what the appeals process is for.

As countless others in many threads on this website have already said... AZA accreditation is really difficult for small zoos to maintain.

Yes, that is true. But it isn't impossible for small zoos to gain and maintain it. If accreditation is important to them, then they should view getting and keeping it a top priority.

That's just the facts.

I don't think that anyone here has denied that?

 

[La Cucaracha]

You're the one who implied that the AZA withholds accreditation for minor reasons, friend.

And what exactly would be a minor reason to you?
Ten years ago, Pittsburgh Zoo lost its accreditation because of a disagreement about the protected contact policy with elephants.
They weren't even the last AZA zoo to stop using bullhooks.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

And what exactly would be a minor reason to you?

Wanting to display species that the AZA doesn't have any interest in?

Ten years ago, Pittsburgh Zoo lost its accreditation because of a disagreement about the protected contact policy with elephants.

That's not a minor reason either? Free contact has historically had poorer outcomes for handlers and elephants alike. Wanting to continue using it and being willing to lose accreditation over it is nonsense in this day and age.

They weren't even the last AZA zoo to stop using bullhooks.

If you ask me, the AZA should've phased bullhooks out decades before they did.

 

[La Cucaracha]

If you ask me, the AZA should've phased bullhooks out decades before they did.

Interesting thought. How long have you worked with elephants?

 

[Persephone]

Has anyone actually lost accreditation for displaying the “wrong” species? Sedgwick County and Gladys Porter are loaded with uncommon stuff and have been accredited for a while.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Interesting thought. How long have you worked with elephants?

I don't think that one needs to work with elephants to be of the opinion that elephants allowed to be elephants and that having their own space is better for the welfare of captive elephants and their keepers.

I'm rather disappointed that you're resorting to the old "You can't possibly understand this topic unless you've had personal experience with it, therefore your opinions on it aren't valid" argument. Surely you can do better than that.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Has anyone actually lost accreditation for displaying the “wrong” species?

Only in the odd user's imagination, apparently.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Has anyone actually lost accreditation for displaying the “wrong” species? Sedgwick County and Gladys Porter are loaded with uncommon stuff and have been accredited for a while.

I forgot to mention Gladys Porter actually does have Bornean bearded pigs. Unfortunately, not a lot of facilities to work together with on them.

I don't think that one needs to work with elephants to be of the opinion that elephants allowed to be elephants and that having their own space is better for the welfare of captive elephants and their keepers.

I'm rather disappointed that you're resorting to the old "You can't possibly understand this topic unless you've had personal experience with it, therefore your opinions on it aren't valid" argument. Surely you can do better than that.

I've dealt with too many non-horse people to entertain the idea their good intentions matter more than actually knowing your stuff.
No, an aid used correctly is not cruel. Unprotected contact can be and has been dangerous for the staff, which is the most valid reason for protected contact.

 

[Iguana_Cabana]

Side note whatever the freak happened to the bush dogs? They used to be so common and now only a few holders have them. I miss those dogs

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

I've dealt with too many non-horse people to entertain the idea their good intentions matter more than actually knowing your stuff.

Not really the best comparison to use with me, given that I'm a horse woman myself.

No, an aid used correctly is not cruel.

I'm reasonably certain that elephants don't appreciate having pointy things jabbed into their ears.

 

[USZOOfan42]

It’s a one-sided argument. Reminds me of the useless shoebill arguments

 

[La Cucaracha]

Not really the best comparison to use with me, given that I'm a horse woman myself.



I'm reasonably certain that elephants don't appreciate having pointy things jabbed into their ears.

Animals don't like the vet, either. What's your point?
Maybe I should ride bitless because it's too cruel.
Oh wait. Hackamores can be used improperly, too.
So where are all these baby Asian elephants from AZA modern standard practices, hmm?

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Animals don't like the vet, either. What's your point?

Speak for yourself, my male Jack Russell Terrier adored his vet after she nursed him through a severe bout of pancreatitis.

Regardless, medical care is necessary. (To say nothing of how animals can be trained using positive reinforcement to actively participate in their vet care.) Elephants doing tricks in order to entertain the public is not.

Maybe I should ride bitless because it's too cruel.
Oh wait. Hackamores can be used improperly, too.

Some bits are harsher than others, just saying. I used to ride a quarter horse who was happiest being ridden in a hackamore.

So where are all these baby Asian elephants from AZA modern standard practices, hmm?

LMAO, are you seriously implying that the AZA switching to protected contact has prevented the American Asian elephant population from successfully breeding?

While said population is currently undergoing a baby boom?

 

[La Cucaracha]

LMAO, are you seriously implying that the AZA switching to protected contact has prevented the American Asian elephant population from successfully breeding?

While said population is currently undergoing a baby boom?

I don't need to imply anything; it's an expert opinion.
You call an aging, declining population a baby boom? EEHV is definitely a factor in the decline, but the European Asian elephant population is still growing.

 

[La Cucaracha]

Regardless, medical care is necessary. (To say nothing of how animals can be trained using positive reinforcement to actively participate in their vet care.) Elephants doing tricks in order to entertain the public is not.

This is exactly the attitude zookeepers had in the 1960s when presented with enrichment ideas btw

Some bits are harsher than others, just saying. I used to ride a quarter horse who was happiest being ridden in a hackamore./QUOTE]

Yeah, some elephants were happier walking around the zoo in the morning with keepers....

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

I don't need to imply anything; it's an expert opinion.

By who? Ex-circus handlers? Lol

You call an aging, declining population a baby boom?

I'd certainly call four healthy calves being born this year a baby boom, yes.

EEHV is definitely a factor in the decline, but the European Asian elephant population is still growing.

As is the North American population. With the EEHV vaccine already showing great promise, I expect that American zoos will be seeing significantly more calves live to eventually produce calves of their own now.

This is exactly the attitude zookeepers had in the 1960s when presented with enrichment ideas btw

Did you happen to be around back then?

Yeah, some elephants were happier walking around the zoo in the morning with keepers....

I think they'd much prefer to live in a natural herd setting, myself. Humans are a poor substitute for the company of an animals own kind.

 

[La Cucaracha]

By who? Ex-circus handlers? Lol

....You do realize zoos hired them as elephant keepers, right?

Did you happen to be around back then?

Actually yes, because it wasn't that long ago.

I think they'd much prefer to live in a natural herd setting, myself. Humans are a poor substitute for the company of an animals own kind.

You're right, elephants don't belong in zoos. Maybe you should write Damian Aspinall a letter; you'd enjoy that correspondence far better.

That's great we had 4 Asian elephant calves this year, but Europe had 8 in 2023. Enough with the cognitive dissonance.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

....You do realize zoos hired them as elephant keepers, right?

One would hope that there aren't many of them left.

Actually yes, because it wasn't that long ago.

Sixty years is a pretty long time, especially when it comes to what's known about animal welfare.

You're right, elephants don't belong in zoos.

Don't go putting words in my mouth now, I never said that. The fact that you seem to be making some... unflattering assumptions about my feelings on elephants in zoos isn't a good look for you. People can disagree with you and still be pro-zoo, you know?

Maybe you should write Damian Aspinall a letter; you'd enjoy that correspondence far better.

Can't stand the man, truthfully. And I actually am having fun! I love a good spirited debate.

That's great we had 4 Asian elephant calves this year, but Europe had 8 in 2023.

Lol, you don't even know how many calves were produced over in Europe this year. Besides, since when are America and Europe in a race to see who can produce the most elephant calves per year?

Enough with the cognitive dissonance.

You really do think that I'm anti-zoo, don't you?

 

[Mr.Ivory]

Animals don't like the vet, either. What's your point?
Maybe I should ride bitless because it's too cruel.
Oh wait. Hackamores can be used improperly, too.
So where are all these baby Asian elephants from AZA modern standard practices, hmm?

As for the baby boom comment, it's true that there has been a real turnaround in the Asian elephant population in terms of growth, with 25 surviving calves born in the past five years.

I'm reasonably certain that elephants don't appreciate having pointy things jabbed into their ears.

Tyke should be the most obvious example...

 

[EliasNys]

On the topic of bullhooks: the EAZA and AZA seems to differ a lot on this issue. The EAZA actually allows the use of bullhooks, and the elephant exhibit at zoo Prague has excellent education with reasons explaining why it is necessary for some elephants etc. I do think the EAZA wants to phase bullhooks out too though, but an EAZA zoo getting expelled for this is something I have never heard of...